Bulls: watching '89 bulls vs pistons..they would get killed today

[AchillesHeel]

To everyone that says "scorers today would struggle then because physical play was allowed" you need to realize that the great defenders of those days would struggle in today's leagues. They'd all foul out in 18 minutes. The argument works both ways

that's bs, they'd obviously adapt to the new rules...like the whole league did in 06 when handchecking was removed. Look at Chicago's and Boston's defenses...Or the Grizzlies. Tony Allen is arguably the best perimeter defender in the game and he doesn't have some hyper athleticism or a huge body. Defense is about basketball IQ not physical attributes. Obviously you need to be fast to a certain degree but you don't have to have Lebron's body to be an elite defender.

The elite defensive teams from the 80s/90s would still be elite in the modern era, maybe even better. They'd be less physical to avoid fouling but they'd still force bad shots and get into passing lanes for easy steals and transition points.

If Pistons managed to keep MJ at a 46% FG and 3.7 TOs, you don't think they could stop Lebron and make him shoot jumpers like the Spurs did? Who do Spurs have that are hyper athletic? It's all about basketball IQ and playing as a team. 37 y.o Timmy and Kawhi/Boris Diaw kept Lebron in trouble and made him shoot a horrible percentage for most of the Finals, Diaw ain't even above-average on defense and Timmy is old, but as a team with the right game plan they can stop the best of them from killing their team.

In conclusion, OP is an idiot.

[Koolaid_Man]

These were supposedly some of the toughest defenses, everyone always is reminiscing about the ' hand checking' and how physical they could be back then, how lebron or kobe can't compare to jordan cause the nba is soft these days.

BULL . lol its amazing how much smaller and skinnier the players were back then, and the athleticism wasn't nearly what it is today. And all the foul calls look the same as today. To be honest all the crap people say about how tough these teams were and how hardcore compared to today, is just nostalgia.

Kobe or durant could have averaged 40ppg against these guys. Don't even start with lebron..he'd EASILY average 35 12 and 12. Easily. And freaks like howard or shaq could have put up bill russell type rebounding numbers.

as much as I love my boy Kobe he would have looked average against a Prime Pistons teams much like MJ did...Lebron or Tim Duncan won't stand a chance with their soft cake creamy pudding style of play...that Prime Pistons team with Rodman, Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn, John Sally would have kicked their asses...and Kobe's too but to a much lesser degree...Listen they were hard nosed...I mean they didn't let anyone in the paint without severe consequences...if I'm not mistaken they broke MJ's ribs once...they put MJ on lock down with the Jordan Rules...they put Rodman on his ass and Rodman really ed up MJ's world...so much so that Phil (like a little ) asked Rodman to apologize to MJ before they signed him on with the Bulls..Rodman said he laughed and issued MJ a half -assed apology for kicking his ass all those years while he was in Detriot..

Bill Laimbeer was the hardest white boy to ever play in the league...I remember he kicked Charles Barkley's ass once...Barkley was swinging like a little ... they had the perfect combination of scoring and defense that I've ever seen on a team...Isaiah, Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson running the offense, with Rodman, Mahorn, Laimbeer, and Sally on defense..I used to hate playing those guys...but I loved seeing them kick MJ's ass...

[Koolaid_Man]

and for the record..there's not a PG in the league today that could with a Prime Zeke....Isaiah was the real deal....and was hard nosed...these guys today are pussies....they would not have been able to physically survive...Isaiah used to whip the outta John Stockton all the time...Malone got mad on one occassion and gave Zeke 40 stiitches...you think a PG in the league today could have withstood this type of punishment...and btw (I always thought Malone was got for this)

[AchillesHeel]

Westbrook imo would fit in the 80s league, that crazy.

[AchillesHeel]

[spurraider21]

that's bs, they'd obviously adapt to the new rules...like the whole league did in 06 when handchecking was removed. Look at Chicago's and Boston's defenses...Or the Grizzlies. Tony Allen is arguably the best perimeter defender in the game and he doesn't have some hyper athleticism or a huge body. Defense is about basketball IQ not physical attributes. Obviously you need to be fast to a certain degree but you don't have to have Lebron's body to be an elite defender.

The elite defensive teams from the 80s/90s would still be elite in the modern era, maybe even better. They'd be less physical to avoid fouling but they'd still force bad shots and get into passing lanes for easy steals and transition points.

If Pistons managed to keep MJ at a 46% FG and 3.7 TOs, you don't think they could stop Lebron and make him shoot jumpers like the Spurs did? Who do Spurs have that are hyper athletic? It's all about basketball IQ and playing as a team. 37 y.o Timmy and Kawhi/Boris Diaw kept Lebron in trouble and made him shoot a horrible percentage for most of the Finals, Diaw ain't even above-average on defense and Timmy is old, but as a team with the right game plan they can stop the best of them from killing their team.

In conclusion, OP is an idiot.

i could make an equally lazy argument and say today's players would adapt to the old rules and be just as effective. i could say that average defenders in todays game, allowed to hand check and play more physically without getting called for fouls, would become better defenders.

[spurraider21]

You are basically saying that yesteryear's offensive players had it rough because they were being mugged by defenders who would foul out in today's games. In other words, today's perimeter players can score a lot easier because defenders can't do what defenders from 20 years ago could.

It's not having it both ways, its the exact same point.

its easier to score in todays game, which makes it harder to defend. its a parallel (though not as dramatic) to how the NFL has become such a passing league due to rule changes. its easier to throw the ball now, and near impossible to defend it. matt stafford of all people, an average qb at best, threw for 5000 yards and 40 touchdowns, which ranks among the best passing seasons of all time. so could you imagine what guys like Revis and Richard Sherman could be able to do in the league where physical defense was allowed?

could you imagine what tony allen, a guy that already plays to the limit of how much physicality is allowd in todays game, was allowed to play even more physical defense? if lebron was allowed to mug people on defense?

[AchillesHeel]

i could make an equally lazy argument and say today's players would adapt to the old rules and be just as effective. i could say that average defenders in todays game, allowed to hand check and play more physically without getting called for fouls, would become better defenders.

My point is they'd likely be just as good in this era as they were in their own, defense used to be more physical but it was not just physical, how did John Stockton average all those steals and make so many defensive teams? He basically has the same body as Nash(2 inches shorter than Nash). It's about basketball IQ and playing as a team, not just being physical.

[ambchang]

its easier to score in todays game, which makes it harder to defend. its a parallel (though not as dramatic) to how the NFL has become such a passing league due to rule changes. its easier to throw the ball now, and near impossible to defend it. matt stafford of all people, an average qb at best, threw for 5000 yards and 40 touchdowns, which ranks among the best passing seasons of all time. so could you imagine what guys like Revis and Richard Sherman could be able to do in the league where physical defense was allowed?

could you imagine what tony allen, a guy that already plays to the limit of how much physicality is allowd in todays game, was allowed to play even more physical defense? if lebron was allowed to mug people on defense?

I don't really watch NFL, so the parallel is lost on me.

If Tony Allen and Lebron were allowed to mug people like they did back in the day, they would become better defenders for sure, which is really the point. There were no shortage of perimeter defenders back in the 80s, and yet we do not have one single person who could be considered an equal to the defenders of the 80s and 90s. Nobody is on the same level as a Pippen, Payton, Cooper, Dumars, or Moncrief in today's game, and it's no coincidence, because people can't play the way they used to anymore, which means that perimeter defenders can do a whole lot than what they could back in the days, which means that players like Lebron, Kobe, Carter, T-Mac and such will likely suffer in the 80s and 90s.

[Killakobe81]

I agree the lack of athletic defenders in late 80's early 90's gave a player like MJ a huge advantage. Kobe and LeBron would exploit the same thing I'd they played then. But if you watch those games especially in the 80's those team could shoot at a higher rate, and the quality of bigs in that era were far superior. So defensively though they lacked athleticism they also had far better paint protection. A frontline of Edwards, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Rodman and Salley would give any player trouble especially if that player struggles to hit 3s. Mj did benefit from the lack of quality defenders last wek I saw Ainge, Randy Wittman ,., Stockton and Hornacek guard him for stretches due to foul trouble or switches. I also saw him torch a older Coop, DJ and Thunder Dan. Point is MJ took advantage of a weak era of athletes but still had the skill, will and ability to compete with the best teams and defenders of those bad boy pistons and any team of any era including the LeBron Heat as well. I love Kobe and LeBron's game. All 3 would be great in any era and LeBron still has an outside shot at GOAt ..but MJ is the best player I have seen so far.And I saw all 3 in their prime. Mj is not perfect if you watch those classic games he forces shots (not as bad as Kobe) and like LeBron and Kobe needed hof help to win it all. Mj is also overrated by some fans who act like its sacrilege to compare LeBron to him. But despite all that still the Goat of players I have seen in their prime I was much too young to enjoy Kareem in his. So its Jordan followed by magic LeBron Bird Shaq, Duncan and Kobe in some order but since most of those guys still playing tough to rank. Mj is still #1 .

[Killakobe81]

Agree with Kool on Zeke pre-injury Rose and Russ have the physical but not the smarts to duck with Isiah CP3 is probably closest but lacks the clutch canines despite the bull clutch stats to lead like Isiah. Paul is regular season clutch but unproven as a playoff closer. Good news is Isiah threw the pass Bird famously stole (dumb move to have Isiah inbounds btw, don't you want your pg getting open? Can a Pistons fan explain this?) But he learned the hard way maybe Paul will too ...