How many of you people...

[scott]

First of all, thanks for the response.

If you rule out creationism as our reason for existing

It's a topic for another debate, but say I don't rule out creationism, but I don't accept is as being infallibly true either. Perhaps I acknowledge that maybe we were "created" by some higher being (which, I assume is what you imply by creationism - if I have made a faulty assumption, please let me know). Who I am to say? I do know, however, that I - as well as all people - are empowered with the facilities of logic. And logic doesn't point to a creationist beginning. It's inherently irrational to discard a logical explanation for one with no logical support other than an unreasonable Cartesian "I think therefor I am" argument.

Being a firm believer in the creation of man by a supreme being as recorded in the book of Genesis, I adhere to the set of morals He has laid out in the scripture. His moral precepts are laid out quite clearly on what is acceptable and what is not.

How clear are they really? Christians of different sects seem to have differing interpretations of the text, which implies that there is some process of logic going on. If only one interpretation is correct, which you seem to imply, then the other are inherently incorrect.

In this sense, your argument that the loss of morals is a threat to society is actually just my argument in wolf's clothing. It isn't the loss of morals that threatens, it is the misinterpretation or illogical disregard of the morals that you have deemed to be "correct" as the threat. Everyone has morals, they just don't always logically apply them.

On the other hand the alternative is to believe that there is no God and that we have to implement logic and find our own morals (or not) and that man exists solely by chance.

That is a fairly non-sequitous jump you made there. There are several alternatives, Intelligent Design's and its predecessors come to mind. You seem to envision much more of a binary realm of faith... it's either your way or the highway so to speak. Obviously, that isn't the case as many people can reconcile their faith with the ideals that you feel are an affront to your God.

That's where evolution, a theory which has been around only about 150 years, comes in. This theory based on the mutation of small organisms into higher, healthier, and smarter life form has been proven false. Science tells us that higher life forms cannot evolve from the mutation of cells , that the mutation of cells can only weaken life forms. Mutations that occur naturally, which is rare in and of itself, have shown to be harmful to whatever it is that is mutating, or at best, neutral.

This would be news to scientists.

The theory of evolution would have us believe that the butterfly and rhinocerus are sisters of the same evolutionary process. Sound rediculous, it is!

Sounds like a cute soundbite from a Kansas school board trial, and it may go over well at a Flood Theory group - but anyone who really paid attention in high school biology knows you are twisting things around to suit your own purposes. Your statement would be the equivilent of me saying that the Theory of Christianity would have us believe that a person who occassionally curses is the same as a child-molesting murderer. Neither statement is true.

The chances of the human body being created by chance in light of it's complexities is the same as a tornado sweeping through a scrap yard and assembling a 747 jetliner. The odds are not astronomical, they are totally out of the realm of possibility.

Statistics 101 tell us there are no such odds that are "out of the realm of possibility." Without getting into a debate of what the odds actually could be, so long as they are 1 out of infinity, it is possible. And the universe is a very large place.

The Book and it's precepts were here long before you and you were fully aware of it's code of conduct so where's the logic behind you ascertaining that you don't need the Book?

The "morals" outlined in the bible and the logic behind them existed long before it was penned. Murder was a crime in pre-biblical societies, so where did they get their morals from?

If I you tell me the sky is blue, then I see the sky is blue... I don't believe the sky is blue because you told me. Awareness is not tantamount to causation, and if you want to argue that it is, there is thousands of years of history suggesting that the Bible's morals are just plagarism of the codes of previous civilizations.

Also, who determines what is ethical and who is right?

Who says anyone has to? It's possible to come to different logical conclusions given the same information - in the equation of "x^2=4", there are two possible solutions for x - both are correct. I don't try to place absolutes, I just try to treat all people with respect. Who is to say that your Bible is "right"? Does it make more sense to do what an acient book says... or to think about the way people should be treated and do that? To me, it makes more sense to treat people with respect, because that is what makes logical sense.

If you ask enough people, most who would claim to be logical, and tallied up a list of things that this mass of logical people said are okay to do and then adhered to the list of things that are "okay to do" I'm betting just about anything and everything would be okay!

Just because you think you are logical, doesn't mean you are.

That's why God's ultimate standard of morals should be adhered to. It's been there since the beginning of time, and it's absolutely thorough in content. At the very least there should be a consensus that His morals are unequivocally righteous and follow them if you please.

Sounds like you are the one who has decided "what is right."

[jochhejaam]

Originally Posted by scott: How clear are they really? Christians of different sects seem to have differing interpretations of the text, which implies that there is some process of logic going on. If only one interpretation is correct, which you seem to imply, then the other are inherently incorrect.

Or rather it implies that people are redefining scripture to suit their own inability to conform to it's morality in it's entirety. It's a dangerous and compromised pathway they have constructed.

In this sense, your argument that the loss of morals is a threat to society is actually just my argument in wolf's clothing. It isn't the loss of morals that threatens, it is the misinterpretation or illogical disregard of the morals that you have deemed to be "correct" as the threat. Everyone has morals, they just don't always logically apply them.

Again you take the Inspired Word of God and present it as if it was tailored upon morals that you thought up. It's not Your arguement, it's His moral law and you have adapted to it. The message that immorality threatens societies has been around since the beginning of time. It's absolutely a lack of morals when people make a concious decision to do wrong. I will go this far, everyone has a sense of right and wrong but there are those that have made doing wrong a way of life.



We are not born with morals, and again we differ because that statement is contradictory to the teaching in the Bible. Children learn to mimic what they see and obey what they are taught until that day when they have to conciously decide for themselves which lifestyle they wish to live. We are taught that we are born into sin and we therefore need to make a cognizant choice to leave the life of sin (immorality). Righteousness is attained by accepting Christ and His teachings into our lives and we then become righteous only because we have asked and accepted into our being the life of a righteous man. In essence the righteous of Christ abides within us. We still have decisions to make on a daily basis that concern morality. It' a matter of will not logic that lead us one way or the other.

[jochhejaam]

Quote: Posted by jochhejaam
That's why God's ultimate standard of morals should be adhered to. It's been there since the beginning of time, and it's absolutely thorough in content. At the very least there should be a consensus that His morals are unequivocally righteous and follow them if you please.

Originally posted by scott: Sounds like you are the one who has decided "what is right."

I'm not sure how you came up with that response. God decreed at the beginning of creation what was right. I have decided to try to follow the perfect guidelines He has commanded us to follow.

Is there any of the morality found in the Bible you find reprehensible?

[scott]

I'm not sure how you came up with that response.

That pretty much says it all then, doesn't it?

[cecil collins]

Creationism is a joke. I guess it is a widely held belief, but that seems far more implausible to me than genetic mutations. Are these the same scientists who wanted to keep Schiavo alive because she was going to recover? You can find a scientist to dispute just about anything. It's not like all scientists think that evolution is a crock, actually I would think that the majority think creationism is a crock. The bible was not written by god, but by people. Who is to say that these people were not insane? Find me proof that humans are not born with morals. How could you know? Sure, much of human behavior is dependent upon what you are taught, and how you are raised, but that doesn't mean the bible is the moral foundation.

Ridiculous? Explain these: "Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung across your faces." Malachi 2:3

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 137:9

I consider myself to be very moral, yet do not need a god to guide me. I think part of god is just a comfort, "knowing" where you are gonna end up. Maybe it's good, because without the threat of some mystical place called , people would be total assholes their whole lives(instead of just in their youth.) I don't need it, but for those who need to feel righteous and holy, excuse me for not waiting for santa by the chimney.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, if anything this thread has given me yet more information on who to take seriously in this forum

[smeagol]

A lot of the people who used to post here to engage in rational discussion no longer do,

Are you refering to MFD?

I continue to come here because there some very knowledgable and reasonable posters who provide great insights, even if they don't share my opinion. Travis and FromWayDowntown most notably.

Man, I thought there was a special bond between you and me

[smeagol]

Well, if anything this thread has given me yet more information on who to take seriously in this forum

Why do you say this?

[SWC Bonfire]

Morals are the rules a society has figured out that govern appropriate behavior so that the society can survive. They can have basis in tradition and/or experience. Some probably go back prior to recorded history.

Creationism is hard to swallow, and has little scientific evidence to back it up. Due to the complexity of nature, however, some sort of "intelligent design" makes more sense than random happenings. There are examples of this all around you, if you wish to see it that way. If you don't, you will focus on other things to prove your point.

[smeagol]

Creationism is a joke.

I fail to see where the humor lies. Is it funny that there might be a God that created us?

Is it humorous that he gave us guidelines to follow in order to live our life to the fullest?

Is it funny that this God loves us and wants for us eternal life?

In any case, if Creationism is a joke, it’s one that billions of people adhere too.

I guess it is a widely held belief, but that seems far more implausible to me than genetic mutations.

Why? If you think about, it’s as equallyfarfetched to believe a personal God created us as to think that we were all once a uni-cel thing/animal swimming in the water, and that life was given to us by and electric wave.

You can find a scientist to dispute just about anything. It's not like all scientists think that evolution is a crock, actually I would think that the majority think creationism is a crock.

Both are difficult to prove. Creationism is ultimately a belief. Evolution is a theory which has not been proven.

The bible was not written by god, but by people.

Christians believe God had something to do with the way it was written.

Who is to say that these people were not insane?

You can certainly believe they were. By what it’s written there, I highly doubt they were insane.

I consider myself to be very moral, yet do not need a god to guide me. I think part of god is just a comfort, "knowing" where you are gonna end up. Maybe it's good, because without the threat of some mystical place called , people would be total assholes their whole lives(instead of just in their youth.) I don't need it, but for those who need to feel righteous and holy, excuse me for not waiting for santa by the chimney.

Being moral does not equal believing in God.

Not so long ago, I did not believe in God. Now I do. Who know if God will show himself to you in the future. I surely hope he does.

[Spurminator]

It doesn't matter how the world began.

Whether you believe God created the universe or that the universe created itself over time, there is little doubt that the earth and its inhabitants are evolving. So much wasted effort is put into proclamations about how the world began... We're all on the same earth with the same scientific evidence that we can use to advance ourselves and our ability to predict the future.

Creationism and Evolution are not mutually exclusive. Too much time is spent trying to prove one or the other false in order to satisfy the misguided belief that they must be.

[Nbadan]

Creationism is hard to swallow, and has little scientific evidence to back it up. Due to the complexity of nature, however, some sort of "intelligent design" makes more sense than random happenings. There are examples of this all around you, if you wish to see it that way. If you don't, you will focus on other things to prove your point.

If God makes sense as the intelligent designer then why not UFOs and aliens? Aren't they also hypothetical? The point is is that many religious doctrine runs counter to what we now know even about our own planet. For instance, science has thought us that the Earth is much older than 5,000 years, and I don't think God created Dinosaurs. I don't think HS kids have the lab experience to intelligently distinguish the difference between proven fact and hypothesis, and a class that undermines much what we have learned through science, and the scientific process, can only set our kids farther back in this discipline than they already are.

[SWC Bonfire]

If God makes sense as the intelligent designer then why not UFOs and aliens?

I think you need to speak with Tom Cruise.

A theory is just that; a hypothesis can be proven or unproven. Can you prove the theory that there isn't a God? Nope. That's why it's called FAITH, not fact. Not all things can be proven or disproven. The universe would be pretty boring if that was the case.

You know, a lot of noteworthy scientists have managed to keep their personal faith and science separate. Some people seem to think that all science must be discovered and practiced by atheists.

[jochhejaam]

Originally posted by jochhejaam: God decreed at the beginning of creation what was right. I have decided to try to follow the perfect guidelines He has commanded us to follow.

That pretty much says it all then, doesn't it?

Yes it does.

[jochhejaam]

If God makes sense as the intelligent designer then why not UFOs and aliens? Aren't they also hypothetical? The point is is that many religious doctrine runs counter to what we now know even about our own planet. For instance, science has thought us that the Earth is much older than 5,000 years, and I don't think God created Dinosaurs. I don't think HS kids have the lab experience to intelligently distinguish the difference between proven fact and hypothesis, and a class that undermines much what we have learned through science, and the scientific process, can only set our kids farther back in this discipline than they already are.

I believe you to be open minded and if your seriously interested in learning about the scientific support for intelligent design I will post a thread. It's interesting reading from a book written by Dr. Walt Brown.

About the author, taken from the website; Walt Brown received a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering from Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology (MIT) where he was a National Science Foundation Fellow. He has taught college courses in physics, mathematics, and computer science. Brown is a retired full colonel (Air Force), West Point graduate, and former Army ranger and paratrooper. Assignments during his 21 years in the military included: Director of Benet Research, Development, and Engineering Laboratories in Albany, New York; tenured associate professor at the U.S. Air Force Academy; and Chief of Science and Technology Studies at the Air War College. For much of his life, Walt Brown was an evolutionist, but after many years of study, he became convinced of the scientific validity of creation and a global flood. Since retiring from the military in 1980, Dr. Brown has been the Director of the Center for Scientific Creation and has worked full time in research, writing, and speaking on origins.


http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/

[jochhejaam]

[B] I don't need it, but for those who need to feel righteous and holy, excuse me for not waiting for santa by the chimney.

I don't come to this forum to proselytyze but since you brought it up I will respond. I'm a Christian but I don't have righteous feelings nor do I feel holy. The comfort or peace that we can feel is in knowing that God has a plan for mankind after this life and that plan included sending His Son to atone for our sins. The righteousness in me is Christ dwelling within me, not me.

Salvation 101:
"All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God" (Bible)

"The wages of sin is death, but, the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". (Bible)

"For God so loved the world that He sent His only Son and whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life". (Bible)

And finally "All who call upon the name of the Jesus will be saved" (Bible)

So sinning, which all do, without accepting what God wishes for us, which is to receive eternal life with Him, leads to eternal death or . But that is not what He wants for us, it's a path He does not want us to take.

(the Bible talks of a place where there is eternal fire and suffering, this is popularly taken lilterally and may be accurate but in my own mind, and I may be making a presumption that is incorrect, I believe that this suffering cons utes an eternal separation from God and an eternity with nothing righteous or moral, full of every kind of evil and abomination for those that have rejected their Creators love for them. This rejection amounts to the Creation telling the Creator to bug off, that He sent His Son to die for them in vain. Rejecting and dismissing His overtures that express how deeply He loves what He has created? It's understandable to me why that segment of His creation has incurred His wrath).

We're talking about eternal life vs eternal damnation here. What do we/you stand to lose by believing and following His guidelines for salvation and living a life where we espouse Jesus Christ as Lord and spend our life helping our fellow creation even if it turned out to be untrue (which I firmly believe is not)? Nothing! What do we/you stand to lose by disregarding the plan for man's salvation if it's true? Everything! It is also my firm belief that anyone who humbly and earnestly approaches God in a heartfelt way and confesses to the sin which we all are guilty of, and asks God to remit the sin from our life will experience the joy and peace that comes from having this removed from our lives. You will be a believer! You will have "become a new creation in Christ, old things (sin and the sin nature) will have passed away and behold, all things have become new!

These things being said it is a free choice. No one can make this choice for another and no one can force someone to partake of His plan. That's God's plan, creating us and allowing us to choose our own path.

This freedom of choice is very well summed up in the scripture "Behold I stand at the door (of our hearts) and knock, if anyone will open this door I will come in unto to them and I will sup with them and they with me". (spiritual communion). He's not forcing his way in...your choice.

[Guru of Nothing]

Christianity = Low Risk/High Reward, in the minds of most; hence its popularity.

It's especially popular amongst the rank and file because they can lower their moral standards with the understanding that ALL their indiscretions will be foriven carte blanche, so long as they praise Jesus.

Meanwhile elitists praise Jesus too, because he keeps all the rank and file in line - docile and oblivious.

The circle of life, some might say.

[Dre_7]

It's especially popular amongst the rank and file because they can lower their moral standards with the understanding that ALL their indiscretions will be foriven carte blanche, so long as they praise Jesus.

I dont know what Bible you read, but that is NOT what the Bible says "moral standards."

[scott]

Read between the lines.

[smeagol]

Christianity = Low Risk/High Reward, in the minds of most; hence its popularity.

Unfortunately this is a oversimplification of Christianity which is far from the truth.

It's especially popular amongst the rank and file because they can lower their moral standards with the understanding that ALL their indiscretions will be forgiven carte blanche, so long as they praise Jesus.

Again, your statement is far from the truth. Your misunderstanding probably arises from the fact that some offshoots of the Faith have put too much emphasis of the fact that if you say “I believe in Christ who is my savior” I’m automatically saved, no matter what you do or how you behave. Again, this is an oversimplification of the Faith.

[smeagol]

Read between the lines.

I tried but I did not read anything different from what GON actually wrote.

Care to expand what's said "between the lines"?

[cecil collins]

It's funny that people today still adhere to something that was used to control people thousands of years ago. Why are there not miracles now? No burning bushes, plagues, or cities of sin inexplicably destroyed. Obviously, morals and god are two different things, and that was in fact my point. I feel that most people think of atheists and agnostics as blood drinking nihilists. I am fairly normal, and smile at old people when we pass, and that is what I was trying to say. To be fair I may have the wrong idea about creationists. I always thought that it was just a bunch of hillbillies that didn't know their ass from a hole in the wall. I thought that even most Christians took it to be fictional, like Noah's ark. By the way, who here believes the whole Noah ark story? Please explain how it is even possible.

[Guru of Nothing]

Your misunderstanding probably arises from the fact that some offshoots of the Faith have put too much emphasis of the fact that if you say “I believe in Christ who is my savior” I’m automatically saved, no matter what you do or how you behave.

By "offshoots," do you mean Protestants?

[smeagol]

By "offshoots," do you mean Protestants?

Proly offshoots is not the right word.

I'm refering to some Protestant denominations, not all.

[MannyIsGod]

I find it amazing how intelligent people can look past the way churches all over the place twist the teachings of Jesus.

Are people that eager to believe that they try to mold everything around what they wnat to believe?