This sucks.
That's my analysis.
Old news, we already had this debate 5 months ago.
The only thing this added to it is the fact that he can tell a boldfaced lie while he is cheating.
There is a difference between defending his numbers as hall worthy, and defending steroid usage and lying....
Palmeiro's statement from MLB.com:
Statement from Rafael Palmeiro
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Thank you very much for joining me on this call today. I am saddened that we are here to address this issue, but because of the importance of it, I feel the need to make a brief statement and address your questions. At the outset, let me say that under the rules of the basic agreement and the order of the independent arbitrator, there is an order of confidentiality governing the specifics of this case. I will attempt to state as much as I can and be as forthright as possible, but there will be issues I can't address based on orders imposed on me by the basic agreement and the arbitration process.
I am here to make it very clear that I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period.
When I found out that I failed a test under the new drug policy, I filed a grievance and challenged the suspension on the basis that I have never intentionally taken a banned substance. Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body - the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program.
I am sure you will ask how I tested positive for a banned substance. As I look back, I don't have a specific answer to give. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally - in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling - but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy.
I accept this punishment and want to address it publicly. I want to apologize to MLB, the Baltimore Orioles organization, my teammates, and most of all, my fans. Given my role with the No Tolerance Committee and my relationships with Congress, I feel the need to communicate a serious message to my fellow players and to kids everywhere. All of us have to be responsible and exercise extreme care in what we put in our body. I hope that all MLB players and kids will learn from what has happened to me. I have never intentionally used a banned substance, but I unfortunately wasn't careful enough.
I take my role as a professional athlete seriously. I love baseball and have great respect for all of the players who played before me. I have always done my best to live each day in ways that would make my family proud. Everything I have accomplished is the result of hard work and dedication to being the best possible player I can be.
I feel terrible that this has happened, but I think there is something to be gained from it. If my situation results in the education of current and future players about the dangers of taking anything without a prescription from a licensed physician -- that is a positive. At the end of the day, it is important for all players to understand the risk of contamination and to be very careful about what they put in their body.
This suspension is going to be incredibly difficult for me, my wife and my 2 boys. Over the next week and a half, I am going to spend time with my family. I am going to come back and will be as determined as ever to help the Orioles win this pennant race that we are in. We have worked very hard to be in a position to bring our fans a le, and I will not let this be a distraction.
Finally, I would like to thank Commissioner Selig and Mr. Angelos for their strong words of encouragement. I had the opportunity to speak with both of them and I am extremely appreciative of their support and friendship.
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/p...=.jsp&c_id=bal
so do you think this will keep him out of the Hall?
YOU BET!!!
I was a HUGE Raffy fan, until today
Raffy can choke on a little blue pill!!!!
take the HOF plaque and toss it in the fire to keep the light bright enough to shoot yourseelf in the ass one more time!
I don't feel real compelled to see him make the HOF if he did steroids...I have the same at ude about Bonds, Sosa and McGwire...
Cheating does that...it just kinda makes you not care and distrust all the players...that's the reason that they shouldn't go into the HOF...
I mean if you look at Palmeiro...he doesn't looks like a steroid user...he's skinny, he's durable, he doesn't have problems with agression(I've never even seen him argue with an umpire over a call)...if he's on them than anyone could be on them.
Barring a better explanation than..." I don't know how they got into my system", he shouldn't make the Hall...because it's just a downer and a negative.
That sounds like the lies I used to tell my parents back in highschool when they'd find my stash.....Uh, I dunno where it came from...one of my friends must have left it here.
Whottt's hero goes down in flames. First he should apologize to Jose Canseco. Obviosly, Canseco wasn't BSing when he said he saw Raffy take steroids. He wasn't really a power hitter until Canseco came to Texas. That should have been the red flag right there.
Raffy is a cheat. 3000 hits and 500 homeruns don't mean jack when you've been juiced for the last 13 years.
Whenever anyone says his name from now on, the first thing you'll think about is steroids. Nice job, Raffy. He should have just retired and saved some of his legacy.
Raffy for prez?
Yeah right.
Palmeiro has made only four All-Star teams. Not once has Palmeiro been voted a starter. His highest MVP finish is fifth. Not once has he led the league in home runs, RBI or batting average...
Not the most dominant player of his era...
Palmeiro hasn't played in a World Series. In 22 postseason games, he has only four homers and eight RBI, with a .244 average. Not really THREATENING @ the plate...
and now with the Steroid report... even less Hall worthy... so he put up good numbers... but he's not Hall worthy...
Uh...I never said he was my hero, that was you that said that because I talked about how great his numbers are.
It doesn't bother me personally, I thought he was a great player, not a hero...and unfortunately he just cheated to do it...I think it's sad waste of career.
But go ahead and celebrate and don't let me put a damper on your glee....just let it be said:
What's bad for baseball is good for TimVP.
I say let him in the Hall of Fame...he deserves it. He just showed me how committed he is to being great...he's willing to destroy his body with steroids just to do it.
I like that dedication.
That's a got argument. Seriously...it sounds like something girl would say...who started saying it? Skip Bayless?
I rest my case.
Big ing deal...Ted Williams hit 400, and hit two triple crowns, he didn't win the MVP in any of those years. Lou Gehrig also hit a triple crown and didn't win the MVP.His highest MVP finish is fifth.
Yet he put up the best RBI season by a left handed batter in 50 years...148 RBI is more than Thomas, Arod, Bagwell, Giambi, Griffey, McGwire or Bonds had...and his 47 homer total wasn't ever beaten by anyone that hasn't been accused of using steroids as well.Not once has he led the league in home runs, RBI or batting average...
So who was?Not the most dominant player of his era...
Barry Bonds? Well a lot of players wouldn't have been the dominant player of their era playing in the same era as Barry Bonds. Lou Gehrig wasn't as dominant as Babe Ruth and Joe Dimaggio wasn't as dominant as Ted Williams...didn't keep them out of the HOF.
So? You want a list of players who never did that are in the HOF? It's an impressive one.Palmeiro hasn't played in a World Series.
Yet it smokes the living out of McGwire's post season numbers...and he's got a world series ring...In 22 postseason games, he has only four homers and eight RBI, with a .244 average.
Um...ask Roger Clemens if he's threatening at the plate...he's got more hits off of Clemens than anyone...the players are/were in awe of his swing...it's just the stupid fans and media that weren't.Not really THREATENING @ the plate...
It's the age of rate stat idiots...
That's all you had to say right there....I'd agree with you...but don't try and say his numbers themselves aren't hall worthy...because doing so only makes you look ignorant about the game...and now with the Steroid report... even less Hall worthy...
The dude is right at 600 homers, 2000 RIB and 3000 hits in 19 years...those are HOF numbers in any ing era...learn the history of the game and don't rely on got popularity contest arguments.
.
Last edited by whottt; 08-01-2005 at 02:14 PM.
"I am here to make it very clear that I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period."
What is it with R(i)P and the word period? Next time he gets busted, it will be something like "I never intended to use steroids when i was 12 and besides Jose Canseco admitted it first. PERIOD."
I'll give him this - he's a good stern lier. He'll be adamant and point his finger while he lies to show you how mad he is at these truthful allegations.
I'm sure there's a mul ude of reasons why he said he never intentionally used steroids, but the main reason is if it is found out that he did, he will have committed perjury in a congressional hearing and would likely see some time.
At least McGwire kept his fat mouth shut.
Whottt, you claimed he was a top ten player ever. I said he was juiced.
Who was right?
P.S.
I'm not celebrating, but it's good that this finally become common knowledge. All one had to do was look at how he suddenly became a power hitter when Canseco joined the Rangers. He suddenly become Babe Ruth after the age of 30. Riiiiiight.
I'm sure Sosa never did steroids. He denied it at the Congressional hearing right?
Big Mac, too, right? He was just exercising his 5th Amendment right. He's an American hero. He would never have taken steroids.
Baseball's superheroes are just victims of the media.
I'm sure Pudge Rodriguez never took anything either.
None of these guys would lie to the public. Not on purpose, at least.
Right? Right?
Baseball used to be so pure. I think it's right up there with race car driving in terms of validity now.
I don't remember saying he was a top 10 player ever.
You weren't saying he was juiced when we originally had the argument.I said he was juiced.Who was right?
This is Raffy's AB/HR ratio through 84 games in 1987: 15.8...that's at the height of the second pitching dominated era...All one had to do was look at how he suddenly became a power hitter when Canseco joined the Rangers. He suddenly become Babe Ruth after the age of 30. Riiiiiight.
At a park that is a notoriously tough HR park for left handed hitters(no Left Handed Cubs player has ever hit more than 41 HR in a season).
He averaged a HR every 15.8 AB through 84 games in his first regular season...he only bettered that 5 times the rest of his career...in a hitting era.
He then set the record for a left handed batter for the Rangers with 26 in 1991(and Arlington Stadium was a brutal pitchers park for LHB)
Both in a pitching era...both prior to Canseco joining the Rangers...he has a HR stroke...
He also lead the league in doubles prior to Canseco...matter of fact...the only times he ever lead the league in anything were prior to Canseco and in a pitchers era.
On top of that...the dude doesn't hit 600 foot homers like most of the other juicers do...he pulls them 350 or so in right field.
Still there's not really much to argue about now...but he showed power early in his career...it's a myth that he didn't have it...what changed was he became a dead pull hitter instead of an opposite field hitter...and he gave up BA to do it.
Last edited by whottt; 08-01-2005 at 02:34 PM.
I'd be making up execuses too if David got busted for something.
That's misleading. Williams didn't win the MVP in those seasons, but Williams won 2 MVP awards anyway (and was 2nd in each of the years you mention and on two other occasions as well), was a 5-time Sporting News Player of the Year, and was in the top 10 of MVP voting on 12 different occasions.
Williams is ridiculous, since the guy missed all or part of 5 seasons in the middle of his career to fight overseas. Williams is undisputedly in the Top 10 of all players, all time. Palmeiro would be a stretch to be in the Top 10 of his era.
I'll assume the "wasn't ever" is meant to be "wasn't ever after Palmeiro." Still, that's just plain wrong:
I mean, I haven't heard (and have no su ions) of steroid use by Alex Rodriguez, and ARod hit 57 homers in 2002, 52 in 2001, and 47 in 2003.
Adrian Beltre also had 48 last year.
Even if you just went with lefties, I'd be curious where the accusations are concerning Griffey, who exceeded 47 in 1996 (49), 1997 (56), 1998 (56), and 1999 (48), and Luis Gonzalez, who hit 57 in 2001, and Shawn Green, who hit 49 in 2001, and Todd Helton, who hit 49 in 2001. I've not read any accusations concerning any of those guys, all of whom are left-handed hitters. You could add Larry Walker, with 49 homers in 1997, and Todd Helton, with 49 homers in 2001, to that list, though I suppose you could discount those achievements as being attributable to a juiced ballpark.
Still, historically, your assertion doesn't hold water, whottt.
Who is making excuses?
Dude got nailed for Steroids...I already said it should keep him out of the Hall...
What's stupid is people saying...500 Homers AND 3000 hits isn't Hall Worthy...
And saying he had no power prior to meeting with Canseco is also a myth...he showed it and I just proved it. And he did change his hitting style.
That's the facts...but hey this dude used steroids and he lied about it...I don't think he belongs in the Hall of Fame and I think he hurt the game tremendously by doing this...
I wouldn't say you proved it, but you definitely provided your version of the story.
One example: the no cubs left handed hitter having more than 41 hrs in wrigley that is supposedly so tough on left handers thing. How many power left handed hitters have the cubs had? How many players on there team throughout their history have even been left handers? What's the ratio - has to be something like 4-1. Even baseball's greatest left handers haven't hit that much more than 41 in a season.
What I'm proposing here is you've skewed facts to appear cohesive with your defensive stance on R(i)P.
Again, though, that number doesn't jive with the period between 1988 and 1992, when his numbers were more like a HR every 34-35 AB over the next several hundred games. Palmeiro hit a lot of HR in one half season and then spent the next 5 full seasons nowhere close to that level of production. You point to a small sample as your proof; I think the rest of us point to the much larger sample as proof that you're wrong.
What difference does that make? Brian Roberts lead the freakin' AL in doubles last year, but that doesn't prove that he's a power hitter.
He showed power for one-half of one season of a 5 1/2 year stretch. Using your argument, one could make a more compelling argument that Brady Anderson was a great power hitter, based on his amazing full season in 1996 (when he averaged a HR per every 11.5 AB). Maybe Brady just decided to become a pull hitter that year. . . .
I don't know how much he truly sacrificed average. From 1986-1992, Palmeiro hit .296 (968/3270). From 1993-2001, he hit .293 (1517/5176). That is a 3 point drop-off -- not much of a sacrifice.
How is it misleading? Did Williams or did Williams not win the MVP in the seasons when he hit for a triple crown or 400?
Yes or no? I mislead nothing...that tells you all you need to know about the validity of MVP voting...
How in the can you say a guy that won a triple crown didn't deserve the MVP? Was he doing less to help his team than someone who did less than he did?
Where did I say Palmeiro was as good of a hitter as Ted Williams?Williams is ridiculous, since the guy missed all or part of 5 seasons in the middle of his career to fight overseas. Williams is undisputedly in the Top 10 of all players, all time. Palmeiro would be a stretch to be in the Top 10 of his era.
But since you argue the point...he also did it prior to integration...
Do you see any fat guy knocking in 715 HR while batting 344% for a career these days?
Do you see anyone batting 400 these days?
What about winning 30 games in a season?
Back then all the best players did not playing in the same league...
And guess what? Those guys cheated back then too...they threw the World Series remember?
I have heard them.I'll assume the "wasn't ever" is meant to be "wasn't ever after Palmeiro." Still, that's just plain wrong:
I mean, I haven't heard (and have no su ions) of steroid use by Alex Rodriguez, and ARod hit 57 homers in 2002, 52 in 2001, and 47 in 2003.
Yeah? And Barry Bonds hit 73 a few years ago...what's your point?Adrian Beltre also had 48 last year.
LOL...go read the side effects of steroid usage...Griffey Jr's career and appearance is the poster boy for steroid usage...just like McGwire, Sosa, Canseco and Bonds...Even if you just went with lefties, I'd be curious where the accusations are concerning Griffey, who exceeded 47 in 1996 (49), 1997 (56), 1998 (56), and 1999 (48),
Those guys bodies all started to break down...Raffy's never did, it still hasn't.
And nothing about that seems strange to you?and Luis Gonzalez, who hit 57 in 2001,
You have zero common sense...
Why don't you throw Brady Anderson's name out there as well to prove your point...: enrolleyes
And I'd say that if you study the side effect of steroids every guy you named shows more evidence of roid side effects than Palmeiro.and Shawn Green, who hit 49 in 2001,
and Todd Helton, who hit 49 in 2001. I've not read any accusations concerning any of those guys, all of whom are left-handed hitters. You could add Larry Walker, with 49 homers in 1997, and Todd Helton, with 49 homers in 2001, to that list, though I suppose you could discount those achievements as being attributable to a juiced ballpark.
And don't forget Jim Thome as well...
It holds as much water as you want it too...Still, historically, your assertion doesn't hold water, whottt.
Yeah just like Raffy can't remember taking steroids.
Both you and Raffy can't remember anything now. That wasn't water Raffy was shooting into his veins.You weren't saying he was juiced when we originally had the argument.
Through 84 gamesThis is Raffy's AB/HR ratio through 84 games in 1987: 15.8...that's at the height of the second pitching dominated era...
Yeah great sample there. Hint: A lot of young hitters can hit homers early in their career because pitchers don't know how to pitch to them. Once a scouting report is built, then you can start looking at things like AB/HR.
Kevin Maas had 21 homers in 79 games in 1990. How much did that mean a couple years later?
Yeah, neither did Raffy. Or Kevin Maas for that matter.At a park that is a notoriously tough HR park for left handed hitters(no Left Handed Cubs player has ever hit more than 41 HR in a season).
Yeah and Glover averaged 10 steals per 48 minutes. Why did the Spurs waive that phenom?He averaged a HR every 15.8 AB through 84 games in his first regular season...he only bettered that 5 times the rest of his career...in a hitting era.
Wow.He then set the record for a left handed batter for the Rangers with 26 in 1991(and Arlington Stadium was a brutal pitchers park for LHB)
Gonzalez had 27 homers. Sierra had 25 homers. Freakin' Kevin Reimer (another lefty) had 20 homers in 250 less at bats. That's a homer every 27 at bats for Raffy and a homer every 19 at bats for Reimer.
In other words, Raffy still wasn't a power hitter.
Not as good of a HR stroke as freakin' Kevin "Kung Fu" Reimer.Both in a pitching era...both prior to Canseco joining the Rangers...he has a HR stroke...
Yeah no kidding. He was a doubles hitter before he started juicing up.He also lead the league in doubles prior to Canseco...matter of fact...the only times he ever lead the league in anything were prior to Canseco and in a pitchers era.
Connect the dots.
Canseco, the human steroid, joins the Rangers and Raffy's HR career high goes up by almost 50%. Stop trying to ignore the facts.
Do you also wait for Santa to come down your chimney?
On top of that...the dude doesn't hit 600 foot homers like most of the other juicers do...he pulls them 350 or so in right field.
How do other home run hitters do it. They're all pull hitters. Do you watch baseball?
Nice job defending a cheat. People like you enabled Raffy to become the cheat he is and always has been. Just because he has a sweet swing and isn't bursting with muscles doesn't mean he wasn't juiced. But people like you had his back and have created the steroid ridden creature we see before us.
Congrats.
was it the cream...or was it the clear?
Damn LJ -- Kevin Maas and Kevin Reimer? You're pulling out the big guns.
I haven't thought about those guys in about 12 years.
The only reason I think Raffy may not have known he was taking steroids, is because surely nobody can be stupid enough to go in front of Congress and deny taking them, then return to baseball under the most scrutiny/harshest testing ever, and still take steroids.
Nobody, right?
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