Duncan quietly closing in on double double leader

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They were both big men who had an elite impact on both sides of the ball and played well over 10 years with the same team while winning several championships. Answer the question: how many players can you say that for?

Kareem winning a ring in '71 has nothing to do with him playing 14 seasons in LA and winning 5 rings there. Winning 5 championships in a 14-year tenure with a single team isn't common by any means. Similarly, Duncan has won 4 rings in 16 (going on 17) seasons with the Spurs.

Also, how many players have played at an elite level past 35 like both Duncan and Kareem?

Most HoF big men in history? Jabbar played until he was 42. If Duncan plays 3 more years then the comparisons make sense.

Robinson won a championship at age 37 and retired.
Ewing played until he was 40.
Malone played until 39.
Mutombo played until 42.
Olajuwon played until 39.
O'Neal played until 38.
Parish played until he was 43.

Shall I go on?

And Alcindor playing for the Bucks means that he didn't play for just one team. Duncan only played for one team. It is a distinction and not a point of comparison.

[SpursFan86]

Lmfao. Ewing, Mutombo, and Malone lead their respective teams to a grand total of zero championships. Parish was no where near the caliber of either Kareem or Duncan. You're seriously reaching now. And

Shaq? Isn't the whole argument of TD > Shaq based upon Duncan having way better longevity? Shaq was constantly injured after turning 35 and couldn't stay on a team. No one will remember what Shaq did after turning 35 ("Shaq played for the Celtics?"). Duncan was the driving force of a team that almost took down LeBron's Heat and Kareem was a big part of 3 les after turning 35.

I guess I'll give you Robinson. I think nearly everyone who watches basketball would agree he wasn't nearly as great of a player into his mid/late-30s as Duncan/Kareem. He definitely wasn't great offensively past 35. Do you honestly believe Robinson had a similar type of impact Duncan/Kareem had in their late 30s?

I'll give you Hakeem. He wasn't nearly as successful as Duncan/Kareem though.

When I say Duncan and Kareem have insane longevity, I'm not simply talking about the fact they still played into their late 30s. I'm referring to the fact they still had huge impacts on their teams and were big parts of their team's success despite being in their late 30s. Several players have played into their late 30s...not many of them have still made huge contributions to successful teams at that age.

I never said Kareem only played for one team. I said he played with the same team for nearly 15 years and won 5 les with that same team. Duncan has played 16 years with the same team and won 4 les. That IS a point of comparison. I don't see how you could argue otherwise. "Both players had a 10+ year tenure with a team and won several les during that tenure"...how does that not count as a point of comparison??? Because it was Kareem's 2nd tenure with a team? I'll refer back to "I said they're pretty similar, not identical".

[Arcadian]

It's pretty funny a Spurs (and I'm assuming, Duncan) fan would hate on Kareem and call him the most overrated player ever. They're pretty similar. Two athletes who have had some of the best longevity in basketball history, amazing defenders who could also carry the offensive load of a team (Duncan was a bit better on defense, but Kareem was unquestionably better offensively), won several les with the same team...what about Duncan is so different than Kareem?

Not necessarily. In terms of points per game maybe, but in terms of offensive skill, Timmy was/is more versatile, could score in more ways, had better passing and ball handling skills. Especially in his younger days, he was doing some crazy offensively that no one had ever seen a 7-footer do before. Kareem had exactly one shot, the skyhook. Granted, it was the most effective shot in history...but still, he was utterly one dimensional on offense.

But I agree with your broader point that Tim and Kareem have a lot in common. Tim is the modern Kareem. If you put Tim in the NBA 1969-89, he would be the one with 6 les and 6 MVPs. (Interestingly, they were both 10x All-NBA First Team.)

[SpursFan86]

I agree with your broader point that Tim and Kareem have a lot in common. Tim is the modern Kareem.

This is really all I was trying to say. I was never trying to say they played identically or had the exact same career paths. Just that their careers have quite a few similarites:

- drafted by a small-market team 1st overall
- led that team to a championship backed by an aging legend (Big O for Kareem, David Robinson for Duncan)
- had an elite impact on both sides of the ball
- spent a very long time (well over 10 years) with a team while making huge contributions to several championships in that span
- played late into their 30s while maintaining an extremely high level of play

Is that really so hard to see, Fuzzy? How many other players fit all of that criteria?

edit: and as for your comments about Duncan vs. Kareem offensively: I agree that Duncan was a more versatile scorer and better passer/ball-handler. But the fact remains...Kareem, despite having a "limited" offensive arsenal, was the 2nd greatest scorer of all-time. I think it's a pretty big reach to say Duncan has had the same level of impact offensively.

[chazley]

Wilt gets no in credit. Go ahead and look ONLY at games he played against the Celtics/Bill Russell (greatest defensive player of all time and could match his height). Wilt averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds a game. He still put up absolutely LUDICROUS numbers. If you haven't read about it, go look up the story about Wilt/Arnold Schwarzenegger. Wilt benched over 500 pounds, which is absolutely incredible because bench press is even harder the longer your arms is. For comparison's sake, Shaq is/was considered the most dominant physical force in NBA history when he was at his peak. His known max bench press is 450 pounds.

Wilt bench pressed 465 pounds at the age of 59.

Here the is a great write-up about Wilt vs Russell: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4232551AA74Eml

Wilt is likely the greatest athletic freak to ever be witnessed in the past ~100 years.

[timmy2003]

Wilt gets no in credit. Go ahead and look ONLY at games he played against the Celtics/Bill Russell (greatest defensive player of all time and could match his height). Wilt averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds a game. He still put up absolutely LUDICROUS numbers. If you haven't read about it, go look up the story about Wilt/Arnold Schwarzenegger. Wilt benched over 500 pounds, which is absolutely incredible because bench press is even harder the longer your arms is. For comparison's sake, Shaq is/was considered the most dominant physical force in NBA history when he was at his peak. His known max bench press is 450 pounds.

Wilt bench pressed 465 pounds at the age of 59.

Here the is a great write-up about Wilt vs Russell: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4232551AA74Eml

Wilt is likely the greatest athletic freak to ever be witnessed in the past ~100 years.

Yea, with his height, his athleticism is truly impressive

[Kidd K]

Early days NBA stats count about as much as the dead ball era in baseball does. Most will just throw those stats out because they look ludicrous by comparison to modern day basketball.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lmfao. Ewing, Mutombo, and Malone lead their respective teams to a grand total of zero championships. Parish was no where near the caliber of either Kareem or Duncan. You're seriously reaching now. And

Shaq? Isn't the whole argument of TD > Shaq based upon Duncan having way better longevity? Shaq was constantly injured after turning 35 and couldn't stay on a team. No one will remember what Shaq did after turning 35 ("Shaq played for the Celtics?"). Duncan was the driving force of a team that almost took down LeBron's Heat and Kareem was a big part of 3 les after turning 35.

I guess I'll give you Robinson. I think nearly everyone who watches basketball would agree he wasn't nearly as great of a player into his mid/late-30s as Duncan/Kareem. He definitely wasn't great offensively past 35. Do you honestly believe Robinson had a similar type of impact Duncan/Kareem had in their late 30s?

I'll give you Hakeem. He wasn't nearly as successful as Duncan/Kareem though.

When I say Duncan and Kareem have insane longevity, I'm not simply talking about the fact they still played into their late 30s. I'm referring to the fact they still had huge impacts on their teams and were big parts of their team's success despite being in their late 30s. Several players have played into their late 30s...not many of them have still made huge contributions to successful teams at that age.

I never said Kareem only played for one team. I said he played with the same team for nearly 15 years and won 5 les with that same team. Duncan has played 16 years with the same team and won 4 les. That IS a point of comparison. I don't see how you could argue otherwise. "Both players had a 10+ year tenure with a team and won several les during that tenure"...how does that not count as a point of comparison??? Because it was Kareem's 2nd tenure with a team? I'll refer back to "I said they're pretty similar, not identical".

I can argue otherwise because Kareem played 1/4 of his career in the midwest. He was not a single team player and it should be a point of distinction. While it may be convenient to your comparison to gloss that over it still is what it is.

Moses Malone never won a le late in his career? You really suck at history. Further your notion is that Kareem and Duncan played at a high level post age 35 (what age was Duncan at his last le?), I am just indicating that all star big men typically play at a high level into their late 30s. Its common amongst every all star big man absent injury. That is another point of difference. Duncan has a degenerative knee condition making his high level admirable. Jabbar never had a similar injury.

Duncan's last championship was in 2007 at age 32. Your comparison as a one team player or elder champion is stupid. Further, Kareem still was carried by the greatest PG of all time in Magic. When Kareem was Duncans championship age, he was getting swept out by Bill Walton when he actually managed to make the playoffs or out of the first round.

When the Spurs manage to get the first pick and have said pick carry the team and Duncan to 5 les you let me know. They don't even play the same position. What you are doing amounts to little more than name dropping. Might as well throw out Russell, Bird, Magic and Jordan while you are at it. They meet your criteria as well.

You still drop the other 4 C I listed you ignore the discussion of their actual career paths. You just keep parroting 15 years 5 les as if that somehow mitigates any of that. Frankly, comparing the greatest PF of all time to that got C that used to run and hide behind Kermit Washington makes me sick to my stomach.

[SpursFan86]

I can argue otherwise because Kareem played 1/4 of his career in the midwest. He was not a single team player and it should be a point of distinction. While it may be convenient to your comparison to gloss that over it still is what it is.

Moses Malone never won a le late in his career? You really suck at history. Further your notion is that Kareem and Duncan played at a high level post age 35 (what age was Duncan at his last le?), I am just indicating that all star big men typically play at a high level into their late 30s. Its common amongst every all star big man absent injury. That is another point of difference. Duncan has a degenerative knee condition making his high level admirable. Jabbar never had a similar injury.

Duncan's last championship was in 2007 at age 32. Your comparison as a one team player or elder champion is stupid. Further, Kareem still was carried by the greatest PG of all time in Magic. When Kareem was Duncans championship age, he was getting swept out by Bill Walton when he actually managed to make the playoffs or out of the first round.

When the Spurs manage to get the first pick and have said pick carry the team and Duncan to 5 les you let me know. They don't even play the same position. What you are doing amounts to little more than name dropping. Might as well throw out Russell, Bird, Magic and Jordan while you are at it. They meet your criteria as well.

You still drop the other 4 C I listed you ignore the discussion of their actual career paths. You just keep parroting 15 years 5 les as if that somehow mitigates any of that. Frankly, comparing the greatest PF of all time to that got C that used to run and hide behind Kermit Washington makes me sick to my stomach.

My bad...for some reason I thought you were referring to Karl Malone rather than Moses.

I'm not going to keep going in some dumb circular argument. I'm leaving it at this:

This is really all I was trying to say. I was never trying to say they played identically or had the exact same career paths. Just that their careers have quite a few similarites:

- drafted by a small-market team 1st overall
- led that team to a championship backed by an aging legend (Big O for Kareem, David Robinson for Duncan)
- had an elite impact on both sides of the ball
- spent a very long time (well over 10 years) with a team while making huge contributions to several championships in that span
- played late into their 30s while maintaining an extremely high level of play

Is that really so hard to see, Fuzzy?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

My bad...for some reason I thought you were referring to Karl Malone rather than Moses.

I'm not going to keep going in some dumb circular argument. I'm leaving it at this:

It's only going around in circles because you do not address my points or rebuttals.

Robertson was not a Buck when Kareem entered the league. He was brought in after the fact when it was obvious Alcindor wasn't going to do anything on his own. Being old is about the end of the Robertson/Robinson comparison. If you cannot see the difference between a guy coming in and taking the team as is to a le versus having to trade for a guy after the fact then I don't know what to tell you.

Lets point out the differences:

-They don't play the same position.
-If you actually watched them play, they look nothing alike. Jabbar's game was using his long arms and leaping ability to put up a shot that only Wilt seemed able to get to. Duncan had a post game that in his prime used a jump hook over either shoulder as well as various drop steps and faceups across the lane. Duncan also was better out of the H or L post with his passing and perimeter jumper. Kareem relied on his size and athleticism. Duncan NEVER has.
-Duncan played for one team for his whole career. Jabbar did not.
-Duncan was clearly the best player on all of his championship teams. Kareem was clearly inferior to Magic when he was 37 years old. You do recall the famous tip that Magic took when Kareem was hurt and could not play? You know the game they won without his unnecessary ass?
-Kareem during his prime was mediocre in a watered down league with half the talent in the ABA. He missed the playoffs or saw first round exits time and again. He never won a championship during those prime years. He instead benefited from playing with Magic and got 5 les late. Duncan OTOH carried at least 2 of his les in his prime.
-Kareem won 5 les thanks to Magic after age 35. Duncan has won none. I just showed you a dozen 'big men' that played well late into their careers. It's incredibly common and a poor point of comparison.
-Kareem was a coward who would pick on guards and then run from other teams enforcers when they took issue. He ran from Wilt into the stands after he floored Goodrich and the Lakers had to get Washington to protect the pansie. Duncan maybe stoic but he is not a coward.

[Arcadian]

Kareem, despite having a "limited" offensive arsenal, was the 2nd greatest scorer of all-time. I think it's a pretty big reach to say Duncan has had the same level of impact offensively.

It's just funny how Kareem did all that scoring with one shot. That's not to detract from his accomplishments; if he could shoot one shot and still dominate the game, then more power to him. But there's definitely something more impressive about a player who can score in a mul ude of ways, namely Duncan and Olajuwon. It's just a difference of style. With Kareem, defenders knew exactly what he was going to do every time he had the ball, and they still couldn't stop it. With Tim/Hakeem, they had so many moves that defenders never knew exactly what was coming. Neither approach is right or wrong, it's just an interesting contrast. Tim and Hakeem have more impressive highlights, if nothing else.