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This could probably be my list...
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Michael Jordan
3. Bill Russel
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Tim Duncan
9. Bob Cousy
10. Hakeem
The top 2 are interchangable. Duncan and hakeem get the nod over Shaq because they were more versatile while having as much (in Duncan's case more) hardware as Shaq.
This could probably be my list...
6 straight championships? You don't remember the 2 year gap between the Bulls 3-peats? It was 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998. I'm not trying to knock MJ down the top 10, but I'm just wanting you to get your facts straight before you go on and on about winning 6 straight rings and 6 straight finals MVP's.I stopped reading after you put Jordan at.............#3?????????
Obviously the players who would be considered to be the "Greatest of All Time" would be dominant and have championship experience---that's what puts them on the list in the first place.
However, MJ, isn't just your average dominating 6 time champion, MVP player. His game and what he brought to it, goes beyond that. He can score 50 some points easily. In his prime, he could easily lead his team to a 50+ win season. He made the Chicago Bulls and Scottie Pippen and PJ whot hey are today. But, aside from all that, he had the best ALL-Around game of any player on that list. People say he hogged the ball? He silenced his critics by leading the league in assists. People say he couldn't win a championship? He won 6 in a row! People said all he was is a shooter? He silenced his critics by making All-Defensive First team.
Yes, there are players out there like Duncan, Shaq, etc. who are dominant and have rings to prove it. But how can you discount a guy who changed the face of basketball, who managed to lead his team to 6 straight NBA Championships and 6 Finals MVPs, and a man who still has to be considered the #1 clutch player in basketball?
Now, I may agree with the names on your list, but #1? Has to be MJ without a doubt.
You make excellent points 1P, but if that is the criteria used, wouldn't Bill Russell be a logical choice as well? He dominated is era much as, if not more than Jordan. His teams won the le 11 of 13 years, including 8 in a row. (A feat that could have been repeated, IMO, if Jordan doesn't play baseball) They both won 5 MVP's, IMO Russell had more compe ion. The only reason Russell only has one any all-defensive team nod is because the award didn't start until 1969, and the DPOY and Finals MVP's were invented after Russell retired. He made the Celtics the franchise they became. He could also score 50 at anytime and could get 30 boards if needed. In his 13 season, his team won 50 or more 10 times to MJ's 8 times out of 15 seasons. I am in no way dogging you 1P or MJ...the dude was incredible but I think a lot of it nowadays is we are all spoiled by watching MJ. Most of us on this board are too young to have seen Bill Russell play. He could score at will, jump out of the gym and re-invented the center position from one of plodding, slow guys to someone who could run a break. I am not saying you are wrong to think MJ was #1....like I said in an earlier post, no one has the right to do that...I just think that it is not as clear cut a decision. Just my .02.Obviously the players who would be considered to be the "Greatest of All Time" would be dominant and have championship experience---that's what puts them on the list in the first place.
However, MJ, isn't just your average dominating 6 time champion, MVP player. His game and what he brought to it, goes beyond that. He can score 50 some points easily. In his prime, he could easily lead his team to a 50+ win season. He made the Chicago Bulls and Scottie Pippen and PJ whot hey are today. But, aside from all that, he had the best ALL-Around game of any player on that list. People say he hogged the ball? He silenced his critics by leading the league in assists. People say he couldn't win a championship? He won 6 in a row! People said all he was is a shooter? He silenced his critics by making All-Defensive First team.
Yes, there are players out there like Duncan, Shaq, etc. who are dominant and have rings to prove it. But how can you discount a guy who changed the face of basketball, who managed to lead his team to 6 straight NBA Championships and 6 Finals MVPs, and a man who still has to be considered the #1 clutch player in basketball?
I think TDMVPDPOY's list is excellent...Wilt & Russell would dominate today just as they did decades ago...
One issue I have....Shaq at 7’ 1” & 350 lbs is just in a class of his own...There are NBA Centers...Then there is Shaquille...I don’t see anyone with such brute strength, quickness & fast hands on the horizon...
I know the majority of you LOVE TD, but however...I would just LOVE TO HEAR any of you agrue the fact that if their situations were switched (KG on SA and TD in Minny) that TD would still have the rings to back his stats up! I mean come on! Minnesota has been full of joke NBA players dating back to when they shipped Billups! LOOK AT THEIR ROSTER COMPARED TO SAN ANTONIO!
Come on...Duncan is GREAT...One of the greatest PF of all times...but guys...are you watching the same NBA that I am? Was I the only one that watched the NBA finals in person and on TV? TD gets bailed out by his teamates over and over again! Manu, Parker and Horry were JUST AS VALUABLE as TD was this year in the finals...and go back to the other finals?
I get a kick out of people that say TD is better than KG...just like Brady is better than Peyton. SAN ANTONIO WITH TD is better then KG and the PATROITS with Brady is better then Peyton Manning!
Take the last 5-6 years...Compare their numbers...gimme a break.
so because we disagree with you...we are not as knowledgable as you?
Career stats for both.
KG- 20.2ppg, 11.1rpg, 4.5apg, 1.4spg, 1.7blk
TD- 22.5, 12.2, 3.1, .78, 2.5
Just because someone disagrees with you about something doesn't make them less knowledgable. Its all opinion. You are not wrong by saying KG is better and I am not wrong saying TD is better, its all opinion. I don't see the need to be insulting.
and in answer to your question.....I have been watching the NBA since the early 80's.
I think Mikey needs 2 or 3 large silver chains if he is going to pull off his new "bling bling balla from the hood" image....
And I forget...How many rings does Garnett have...Maybe a forum NBA historian knows?
at least 2 or 3!
Yea Camper...I guess regular season MVP's, Finals MVP's and rings don't matter.
The few re s who are claiming that Kareem wasn't "that" great should note that he won 6 MVPs (one more than Jordan) and 6 les. Not only that, but he was the greatest NCAA player ever and lead UCLA to gaudy success record and lewise. He was a winner on every level -- all time leading scorer, #3 in rebs, #2 in blocks.
^ Try to downplay that and you oughtta be shot execution style...and I got me a .45 and an itchy trigger finger. Let me know where you stand.
This is dumb too, because for ing CERTAIN, Magic Johnson is not the 11th best player in league history or less. The guy took 2 MVP awards away from Jordan for 's sake.
I agree with your take except that the person you should have mentioned is Hakeem (or O'Neal). Putting Duncan over hakeem or shaq is just homerism, as you said Horry really saved Duncan's A$$ from a ewing-esque or malone-esque choke job in Game 5 this year. 1 of 7 at the FT line in the 4th Q and
a missed layup at the buzzer to win.
Hakeem in particular is just better at both ends of the court than Duncan. Hakeem may be the 2nd or 3rd best defensive big man in league history and DUncan probably doesn't crack the top 25-30 all-time defensively. Plus hakeem scored more, shot a better % from FG and FT, and did it against better compe ion in a better era of bball. Not even a comparison between the 2. Hakeem was also much better in the clutch. The only edge Duncan has on him is as a passer and it's not a real significant one. I won't touch the Shaq debate again, but I feel Shaq overall is better at this point in time at least.
Now on to KG, LOL. Duncan is much better than KG. The Spurs don't have 3 les with KG instead of TD. You need post scoring in the playoffs, a back to the basket game. KG just aint got it. Very overrated player IMO.
KG: TD :: DRob: Hakeem.
1- Wilt Chamberlain
2- Bob Cousy
3- Earvin "Magic" Johnson
4- Larry Bird
5- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6- Bill Russell
7- Jerry West
8- Oscar Robertson
9- Julius Erving
10- Michael Jordan
Why is a Spurs fan putting Duncan ahead of someone "homerism" but someone putting Shaq ahead of someone not homerism? Does this mean that people should not vote for players on their favorite teams for anything? Does that mean that as a Spurs fan, when I thought TD was the MVP of the league, and he was voted as such...I was being a homer? By that logic, you are being a homer by saying Shaq should be ahead of Duncan. Those three years when LA was winning les and people were saying they were #1...it was true. By your logic all those lakers fans were just being homers when in fact LA was #1. Detroit was the best team in 03-04 but by your logic the Pistons fans who said they were #1 were homers when in fact....Detroit was #1. Believe it or not, it is possible to think someone on your favorite team is good without being a homerPutting Duncan over hakeem or shaq is just homerism
didn't need the insults...but good point. by Bobbyjoe's logic....a-puppy is a Lakers homer...when in fact, he is a Spurs fan.The few re s who are claiming that Kareem wasn't "that" great should note that he won 6 MVPs (one more than Jordan) and 6 les. Not only that, but he was the greatest NCAA player ever and lead UCLA to gaudy success record and lewise. He was a winner on every level -- all time leading scorer, #3 in rebs, #2 in blocks.
The vast majority of fans outside of SA would put Duncan behind Shaq and Hakeem. Robert HOrry, who played with all 3, puts Duncan behind Shaq and Hakeem. If you look at the stats of the 3, you'd see that Duncan's are third best of the group, particularly playoff statistics. He's just not as dominant as the other 2 in their primes and it's pretty obvious unless you are blinded with Spurs homerism.
Saying MJ was better than Duncan doesn't make you a Bulls homer but saying Duncan is better than MJ is spurs homerism because it's not close enough to be debatable. This is really not rocket science, despite your convoluted, flawed post.
who said that Duncan is better than MJ? Nobody here said that. I never said that and I don't agree with it.Saying MJ was better than Duncan doesn't make you a Bulls homer but saying Duncan is better than MJ is spurs homerism because it's not close enough to be debatable.
My point is this...someone can believe something without being blinded by homerism. I am not saying homerism doesn't exist but I am saying that not every fan is guided by it. My post was not convoluted or flawed...it just didn't agree with yours and that's cool...I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree. I have no problem with people disagreeing with anyone....I just think its uncool to insult someone just because they disagree with you.
Last edited by samikeyp; 08-07-2005 at 11:17 AM.
The fun part about lists like this is that there is no clear cut one correct list. There are too many variables to accurately determine who is the best ever. You have to take into account the eras they played in, the postions they played, etc. Is it fair to compare a guard to a center or forward? The guys who played from the 80's on had the benefit of more exposure of what they did, improvements in training technology, better travel (chartered planes) , nutrional supplements etc. but that doesn't mean they are less worthy. While I don't agree with people now who ignore the players of years ago....I also think its wrong for the people who watched Russell, Wilt etc. to discount the players now as "having it too easy" Both generations of players worked their asses off to get where they are.
Got a question for Laker fan.....I once heard the argument that Magic Johnson was the best player ever because he was felt Magic was the only player that could have been a legit all star at all five positions. (In 1980 he played center in the finals and played well) For that reason....I had Magic ahead of Michael until I saw that last Utah series. What do you, as Laker fans, feel about that angle?
I.E. Everyone of the Bulls les...the Pistons 88-90, 2004 lol
Well then I THINK you are an IDIOT for saying you have been watching the NBA since the early 80's and you make a post like that!!
FIRST OFF - TD played 4 years at WAKE...WINNING NOTHING I MIGHT ADD...Then came into the NBA and landed at the doorsteps of a GREAT team that had sandbagged their season because David Robinson went out early in the year. So they LUCKLY GOT THAT PICK...and everyone knows they were a playoff team without Duncan there anyways!! CANNOT ARGUE THAT.
SECONDLY - KG came into the NBA STRAIGHT OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL, PLAYING TONS OF MINUTES. So...if you want to compare two hall of famers careers we will see their total numbers after their careers are over with...OR you can take what KG DID FROM 18-22 AS WHAT TD did 18-22 at WAKE FOREST.
KG's numbers are amazing considering he came right out of High School to a franchise that HAD JUST STARTED...he didnt get to land with one of the best big men of all times in a situation that was already established as a winning one. Say what you want...Their opportunities have not even been close in this league, from coaches to players to the front office.
Duncan got a god send going to SA...His ups get overshadowed way too much...
I just posted numbers from NBA.com...didn't make them up.
so I am an idiot for not agreeing with you. Fair enough. Just because you say something doesn't mean its true or vice versa. There are others, who are not Spurs fans, who would agree with me and have. You have a right to your opinion and I respect that, even if I disagree. Neither of us are really wrong here. We are stating our opinions....opinions are not fact and cannot be right or wrong.
I am not dissing KG in any way...the dude is an incredible talent and will be a hall of famer.....Say what you want but it doesn't change anything....IMO, he is a better athlete but Duncan is the better basketball player.
Chill out. I was just giving my list. I have not made one derogatory remark about anyone else's opinion on this topic. Sorry I won't post here anymore. Good bye!
Shaq is the greatest of all time. He is unstoppable.
If Hakeem was so great, how come his teams failed to reach 50 wins 11 times in his career (not counting Toronto) and he even failed to make the playoffs in 92, while playing 70 games.Putting Duncan over hakeem or shaq is just homerism
Between 88-99, the Rockets were kicked out of the first round 6 times. They missed the playoffs once, and they were swept out of the second round once.
Does a top 10 all-time player allow his team to not make the playoffs in his prime? Does he allow his team to not make the playoffs or be knocked out of the playoffs in the first round 7 times? Would he fail to reach 50 wins 11 times?
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