NBA: Inside The NBA Article: Tim Duncan is a great player, but NOT top 10 of all-time

[ambchang]

Turned out the author, born 1967, was already enjoying basketball and the greatness of Cousy, Baylor, Pe , West and Chamberlain's league dominance before he was a sperm.

[ambchang]

Kobe is better than Timmy, but It's not be as much by what Kool thinks.
And if for some reason you believe Tim is greater than Kobe it isnt as far as Kobe haters would have you believe either.
I think it is pretty close with Kobe having teh greater career and post season success after 2008 before the last two years.
SO i thought Kobe had pulled away quite a bit but when you factor that last two seasons Duncan has made it close again.
I wont argue my case here since Kool is just trolling yall (though i know he believes this)

Duncan makes my top 10 because I never saw Wilt or Pe and tbh I missed most of Moses Prime as well ..

In some order:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Kobe
4. Lebron
5. Bird
6. Isiah
7. Tim
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Moses

I dont do players prior to 1980 ... that 10th spot is tough with Moses, KG and Dirk all in consideration tbh

We've been through this multiple times, but dude, Kobe's accomplishments over Duncan were, amazingly, all team-based. Oh wait, there's only one, 5 championships, of which Kobe was clearly a 2nd banana in 3 of them, and arguably shared top dog in 2. Duncan was clearly top dog in all four of the Spurs championship. You can't spin this crap.

[Blake]

This Boston ginger is still pissed about the 97 draft.

[Thread]

We've been through this multiple times, but dude, Kobe's accomplishments over Duncan were, amazingly, all team-based. Oh wait, there's only one, 5 championships, of which Kobe was clearly a 2nd banana in 3 of them, and arguably shared top dog in 2. Duncan was clearly top dog in all four of the Spurs championship. You can't spin this crap.

You had your in' chance last June. And you ed it up. Duncan a big part of that up.

Don't come in here now trying to pretend that didn't happen.

[spurraider21]

if the main arguments for Kobe over Tim are 5>4 or B2B, then by what measure can you s put Bird above Duncan?

[Thread]

if the main arguments for Kobe over Tim are 5>4 or B2B, then by what measure can you s put Bird above Duncan?

Duncan is a sexual, 21. It's as simple & complex as that.

[Phenomanul]

You had your in' chance last June. And you ed it up. Duncan a big part of that up.

Don't come in here now trying to pretend that didn't happen.

I'm pretty sure Duncan showed up to both games 6 and 7 of last year's Finals... Manu, unfortunately, played the worst game of his life in Game 6 otherwise Duncan would have 5 rings...

I distinctly remember Kobe going 6-24 in Game 7 of the 2008 Finals against the Celtics...

[spurraider21]

Duncan is a sexual, 21. It's as simple & complex as that.

I'll have to see the proof before I render my decision.

[ambchang]

You had your in' chance last June. And you ed it up. Duncan a big part of that up.

Don't come in here now trying to pretend that didn't happen.

You have no problem with Horry > Kobe because of 7>5, so I know how seriously I take your "takes".

Also, you are chicken .

[tlongII]

I would put Duncan in the top 10.

[Killakobe81]

We've been through this multiple times, but dude, Kobe's accomplishments over Duncan were, amazingly, all team-based. Oh wait, there's only one, 5 championships, of which Kobe was clearly a 2nd banana in 3 of them, and arguably shared top dog in 2. Duncan was clearly top dog in all four of the Spurs championship. You can't spin this crap.

I know we have and that is why I did not state again why Kobe is greater and Like I said it is close (for me).
I can put plenty of individual stats etc on why I think Kobe is better but I'm not a stats guy and it's not like it would change your mind.
We will do this dance when their careers are over Amb, not before.
But tbh your increased bias and refusal to at least admit makes me wonder if I would even enjoy a debate with you anyway.

All of this is opinion ... even Mj over Lebron is an opinion unless you are using ring count or stats. but there are some that favor Lebron.

What kills me is Kool is the one mocking your greatest player, I said he was greater than Shaq close to Kobe and your dumbasses come after me.

Kool is a lot smarter than he his posts would suggest and yall are pretty dumb, blinded by Kobe hate or both to see it.

[ambchang]

I know we have and that is why I did not state again why Kobe is greater and Like I said it is close (for me).
I can put plenty of individual stats etc on why I think Kobe is better but I'm not a stats guy and it's not like it would change your mind.
We will do this dance when their careers are over Amb, not before.
But tbh your increased bias and refusal to at least admit makes me wonder if I would even enjoy a debate with you anyway.

All of this is opinion ... even Mj over Lebron is an opinion unless you are using ring count or stats. but there are some that favor Lebron.

What kills me is Kool is the one mocking your greatest player, I said he was greater than Shaq close to Kobe and your dumbasses come after me.

Kool is a lot smarter than he his posts would suggest and yall are pretty dumb, blinded by Kobe hate or both to see it.

Great to see that you are down to personal attacks on intelligence.

I can never in a million years understand how you can say Kobe > Shaq as a Laker fan. Shaq took the Lakers out of a decade long drought of championships, or even contention, and gave you three straight. Shaq, for as short as his prime was, was clearly > Kobe in all aspects, even when just taking their Laker careers into account.

As for stats of Kobe > Duncan, other than points, assists and steals (later being "guard" stats), there really isn't much you can say. Efficiency, rebounds, blks (big men stats), are Duncan's. When you put into account advanced stats, which is a much better measure of how a player contributes to a team's success, Duncan was better in WS/48 and difference of ORtg and DRtg, Duncan was better despite a lower usage rate.

For Kool, puleaze, the dude was clearly trolling, and requires little attention. After a while, it's predictable and trite.

And as for ring counts to argue one player over another is consistently shown to be misguided and pure opinion. Kobe was clearly 2nd banana in 2000 to 2002, and yet you are summarizing as 5>4. You have clearly stated Horry > Kobe of 7>5 is stupid, and yet where do you put the cut off? Even you would have to admit Kobe was clearly batman in 2000 and 2001 (2002 was clear batman to me, but then you like to dismiss how the entire league was giving marginal bigmen contracts to foul Shaq, and nobody was making any special arrangements to contain Kobe) and you are counting those as equals to Duncan's 4 or Kobe's other 3? How does that work? You are just making standards up as you go.

He also played horribly in 2004, 2008, 2011 and 2012, led his team nowhere in his absolute prime between 2005 and 2007.

[Koolaid_Man]

I would put Duncan in the top 10.

of course you would T-Long you're an old man..old, boring, plain vanilla suits you just fine

[Thread]

of course you would T-Long you're an old man..old, boring, plain vanilla suits you just fine

Exactly. He probably even gets the senior discount all over metro Portland.

[Killakobe81]

Great to see that you are down to personal attacks on intelligence.

I can never in a million years understand how you can say Kobe > Shaq as a Laker fan. Shaq took the Lakers out of a decade long drought of championships, or even contention, and gave you three straight. Shaq, for as short as his prime was, was clearly > Kobe in all aspects, even when just taking their Laker careers into account.

As for stats of Kobe > Duncan, other than points, assists and steals (later being "guard" stats), there really isn't much you can say. Efficiency, rebounds, blks (big men stats), are Duncan's. When you put into account advanced stats, which is a much better measure of how a player contributes to a team's success, Duncan was better in WS/48 and difference of ORtg and DRtg, Duncan was better despite a lower usage rate.

For Kool, puleaze, the dude was clearly trolling, and requires little attention. After a while, it's predictable and trite.

And as for ring counts to argue one player over another is consistently shown to be misguided and pure opinion. Kobe was clearly 2nd banana in 2000 to 2002, and yet you are summarizing as 5>4. You have clearly stated Horry > Kobe of 7>5 is stupid, and yet where do you put the cut off? Even you would have to admit Kobe was clearly batman in 2000 and 2001 (2002 was clear batman to me, but then you like to dismiss how the entire league was giving marginal bigmen contracts to foul Shaq, and nobody was making any special arrangements to contain Kobe) and you are counting those as equals to Duncan's 4 or Kobe's other 3? How does that work? You are just making standards up as you go.

He also played horribly in 2004, 2008, 2011 and 2012, led his team nowhere in his absolute prime between 2005 and 2007.

you trying to get a piece when I say no ... you got a bit of rapist in ya? (waits for the Kobe comeback ...)
What part of my piece was a attack of anyone in particular's intelligence?
I quoted you because we have history but I have also heaped plenty of praise your way despite your biases.
As you said we have been down this path ...What has really changed? Kobe was better from 2008-2012 while depsite closing the regular season well I think Tim deserves the nod the past two seasons.
So again we are back to the same place they are "close".
The great thing about hoops debates I dont have to convert you nor you me.
You have stated your points and I have mine.

If you have nothing new to offer what is the point?
And you can dismiss rings but if Timmy had rung last June ever Spur fan from here to argentina would of added that bullet team accomplishment or not ...so stop the bull .
And stop being so sensitive.
I threw out general statements about "dumb people" I dont consider you one, so if it does not apply to you ignore it.
If it does, own it.

[Koolaid_Man]

Great to see that you are down to personal attacks on intelligence. Gander sauce is delicious

I can never in a million years understand how you can say Kobe > Shaq as a Laker fan. Shaq took the Lakers out of a decade long drought of championships, or even contention, and gave you three straight. Shaq, for as short as his prime was, was clearly > Kobe in all aspects, even when just taking their Laker careers into account. - Wrong. Shaq proved he was failure in Orlando. Got swept in his lone trip to the finals without Kobe and he had a stacked team and he clearly coat-tailed Wade in 06. If not for that it would be Kobe 2 Daddy 0. Shaq was the most dominant no question but there is a huge difference in being the most dominant and the best...too bad you dumb-asses can't see it...the FACT is Shaq not only didn't be he couldn't win until Kobe came into his own. Let me give your re ass an example...while Shaq was more dominant Duncan was the better player skill wise..and being big men they both lacked the total skills that Kobe possessed so therefore Kobe was a better player than both of them...Kobe was also more dominant that Duncan..Duncan was dominant only 1 yr of his entire career and I think that was in 2001 if I'm not mistaken..Kobe's been both the best and dominant through-out his entire career.

As for stats of Kobe > Duncan, other than points, assists and steals (later being "guard" stats), there really isn't much you can say. Efficiency, rebounds, blks (big men stats), are Duncan's. When you put into account advanced stats, which is a much better measure of how a player contributes to a team's success, Duncan was better in WS/48 and difference of ORtg and DRtg, Duncan was better despite a lower usage rate. Duncan contributed nothing to the game outside of SA...no one watches the game because of him...he's a just a boring cat to watch...fact is Kobe's stats as a 2nd option in LA are better than Duncan's as a first option in SA..I've posted proof ad nauseam before...Duncan is simply an inferior player to Kobe...dude couldn't even lead team USA when he had his chance and then he quit on his country...it's down right shameful conduct imho...

For Kool, puleaze, the dude was clearly trolling, and requires little attention. After a while, it's predictable and trite. Nope...just all facts no trolling...

And as for ring counts to argue one player over another is consistently shown to be misguided and pure opinion. Kobe was clearly 2nd banana in 2000 to 2002, and yet you are summarizing as 5>4. You have clearly stated Horry > Kobe of 7>5 is stupid, and yet where do you put the cut off? Even you would have to admit Kobe was clearly batman in 2000 and 2001 (2002 was clear batman to me, but then you like to dismiss how the entire league was giving marginal bigmen contracts to foul Shaq, and nobody was making any special arrangements to contain Kobe) and you are counting those as equals to Duncan's 4 or Kobe's other 3? How does that work? You are just making standards up as you go. Wrong..again numnuts San Antonio hired all kinds of defensive specialists to try and contain Kobe..it was their primary job and the still failed...Bruce Bowen, Sean ******, Antonio Daniels, etc etc...Kobe torched every SA player..this had nothing to do with Shaq...Kobe torched your backcourt homie...Kobe torched players that don't rotate to double Shaq so I've just shat over your whole thesis..Popovich spent a lifetime trying to double Kobe and Kobe either broke the double or scored over it...I may be the only Laker fan on this site that won't let you re s rewrite history and if that's the case then so be it...

He also played horribly in 2004, 2008, 2011 and 2012, led his team nowhere in his absolute prime between 2005 and 2007.

See my brilliance above in red....after you read it go yourself...once I again I own you boo... ;-)

[Blake]

Too red didn't read

[King Emmanuel]

hey man I don't hate kobe at all... i genuinely think he and timmy are just as good as each other

kobe had an amazing 3 year run in 2008-2010 i think people understimate him

[kobe4life]

Great to see that you are down to personal attacks on intelligence.

I can never in a million years understand how you can say Kobe > Shaq as a Laker fan. Shaq took the Lakers out of a decade long drought of championships, or even contention, and gave you three straight. Shaq, for as short as his prime was, was clearly > Kobe in all aspects, even when just taking their Laker careers into account.

As for stats of Kobe > Duncan, other than points, assists and steals (later being "guard" stats), there really isn't much you can say. Efficiency, rebounds, blks (big men stats), are Duncan's. When you put into account advanced stats, which is a much better measure of how a player contributes to a team's success, Duncan was better in WS/48 and difference of ORtg and DRtg, Duncan was better despite a lower usage rate.

For Kool, puleaze, the dude was clearly trolling, and requires little attention. After a while, it's predictable and trite.

And as for ring counts to argue one player over another is consistently shown to be misguided and pure opinion. Kobe was clearly 2nd banana in 2000 to 2002, and yet you are summarizing as 5>4. You have clearly stated Horry > Kobe of 7>5 is stupid, and yet where do you put the cut off? Even you would have to admit Kobe was clearly batman in 2000 and 2001 (2002 was clear batman to me, but then you like to dismiss how the entire league was giving marginal bigmen contracts to foul Shaq, and nobody was making any special arrangements to contain Kobe) and you are counting those as equals to Duncan's 4 or Kobe's other 3? How does that work? You are just making standards up as you go.

He also played horribly in 2004, 2008, 2011 and 2012, led his team nowhere in his absolute prime between 2005 and 2007.

Eventually overtime you will accept the great book of Koballah's teachings which is that Kobe's god. you need to accept that Duncan is nowhere near being better than God. He's not in the same league as God.

[ambchang]

you trying to get a piece when I say no ... you got a bit of rapist in ya? (waits for the Kobe comeback ...)
What part of my piece was a attack of anyone in particular's intelligence?

Umm ... this?

...
What kills me is Kool is the one mocking your greatest player, I said he was greater than Shaq close to Kobe and your dumbasses come after me.

Kool is a lot smarter than he his posts would suggest and yall are pretty dumb, blinded by Kobe hate or both to see it.

I quoted you because we have history but I have also heaped plenty of praise your way despite your biases.
As you said we have been down this path ...What has really changed? Kobe was better from 2008-2012 while depsite closing the regular season well I think Tim deserves the nod the past two seasons.
So again we are back to the same place they are "close".

So Tim was greater from rookie year till 2007 (even by your standards), Kobe was better 2008 to 12, and Tim was better since, so how in the world can Kobe be better? I mean, he was better in 4 out of like 17 years, and that is at the very tail end of Duncan's career, and even Duncan, in those years, have 2 years where even YOU had to concede is better than Kobe. Let me know, how in the world is Kobe better?

The great thing about hoops debates I dont have to convert you nor you me.
You have stated your points and I have mine.

If you have nothing new to offer what is the point?
And you can dismiss rings but if Timmy had rung last June ever Spur fan from here to argentina would of added that bullet team accomplishment or not ...so stop the bull .
And stop being so sensitive.
I threw out general statements about "dumb people" I dont consider you one, so if it does not apply to you ignore it.
If it does, own it.

You quoted me, so I responded, and from what I saw, I am the only one who responded to you.

And other people's opinions, even though they are Spurs fans, do not change mine. In fact, Duncan's ability to still anchor a championship contending team's defense at 37 years old speaks volumes about how good he was, even though he didn't win the championship. The myopic view of that even Ray Allen's 3 pointer missed would have made Duncan better, especially when Duncan wasn't even playing at that point, is beyond stupid, but according to your, and most other people's logic, it does.

Shaq > Kobe without question, and to me, Shaq ~ Duncan, you can make arguments for each, but I would say Duncan is greater due to his ability to adapt to different systems.

[ambchang]

Gander sauce is delicious

Diversion again.

Wrong. Shaq proved he was failure in Orlando. Got swept in his lone trip to the finals without Kobe and he had a stacked team and he clearly coat-tailed Wade in 06. If not for that it would be Kobe 2 Daddy 0. Shaq was the most dominant no question but there is a huge difference in being the most dominant and the best...too bad you dumb-asses can't see it...the FACT is Shaq not only didn't be he couldn't win until Kobe came into his own. Let me give your re ass an example...while Shaq was more dominant Duncan was the better player skill wise..and being big men they both lacked the total skills that Kobe possessed so therefore Kobe was a better player than both of them...Kobe was also more dominant that Duncan..Duncan was dominant only 1 yr of his entire career and I think that was in 2001 if I'm not mistaken..Kobe's been both the best and dominant through-out his entire career.

LOL, Laker fan logic, missing the playoffs and getting kicked out out of the first round twice is better than being swept in the finals. LOL. Missing the playoffs in his absolute prime and blaming bad teammates when he had Rudy T as a coach, Caron Butler and Lamar Odom as teammates.

Duncan contributed nothing to the game outside of SA...no one watches the game because of him...he's a just a boring cat to watch...fact is Kobe's stats as a 2nd option in LA are better than Duncan's as a first option in SA..I've posted proof ad nauseam before...Duncan is simply an inferior player to Kobe...dude couldn't even lead team USA when he had his chance and then he quit on his country...it's down right shameful conduct imho...

LOL, scoring more points = better stats.

Nope...just all facts no trolling...

I feel sorry for you friends and relatives.

Wrong..again numnuts San Antonio hired all kinds of defensive specialists to try and contain Kobe..it was their primary job and the still failed...Bruce Bowen, Sean ******, Antonio Daniels, etc etc...Kobe torched every SA player..this had nothing to do with Shaq...Kobe torched your backcourt homie...Kobe torched players that don't rotate to double Shaq so I've just shat over your whole thesis..Popovich spent a lifetime trying to double Kobe and Kobe either broke the double or scored over it...I may be the only Laker fan on this site that won't let you re s rewrite history and if that's the case then so be it...

Sean Elliott (learn to spell) has been with the Spurs since his rookie year in 1989, except a couple of forgettable Detroit years. In fact, he didn't even play any significant role since 1999. If you concede Elliott can be an effective defender of Kobe after Elliott's kidney transplant, you are basically telling me that Kobe sucked.

Then Antonio Daniels ... he was a defensive specialist? You saw him on any All-D teams? What kind of defensive specialist was that? He also gave up two inches and several pounds to Kobe.

Bowen was the only one the Spurs hired, and guess what, Bowen did his job ONE ON ONE against Kobe. I mean, you see any teams effectively contain Duncan or Shaq 1-1 during their primes? , they couldn't even do it against Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Thomas, or any other top 15-20 players, and guess what, they did it with Kobe! Really amazing.

BTW, let's see how Kobe torches the Spurs EVERY year. All playoff series stats.

99 - 21.3 ppg on 44.7% shooting. Compared to 19.9 on 46.5% in regular season. Wow, Kobe sure showed the Spurs.
01 - 33.3 ppg on 51.4% shooting. This is the ONLY year Kobe went off with any decent defense because the entire Spurs team was stopping Shaq, and Kobe had to score against defensive juggernauts like Antonio Daniels and Terry Porter. Shaq and Duncan made their mark vs. 4 time DPoY like Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace, Kobe did it against Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels.
02 - 26.2 ppg on 45.5% shooting vs. 25.2 on 46.9% in regular season while being single teamed by Bowen.
03 - 32.3 ppg on 43.4% shooting. Pretty much the first year he shot the Lakers out of the playoffs because he refused to feed Shaq, who was shooting 55.9% from the field.
04 - 26.3 on 46.2% and heavy minutes.
08 - 29.2 on 53.3% shooting. Tail end of the Spurs era.

See my brilliance above in red....after you read it go yourself...once I again I own you boo... ;-)

[Killakobe81]

Umm ... this?


So Tim was greater from rookie year till 2007 (even by your standards), Kobe was better 2008 to 12, and Tim was better since, so how in the world can Kobe be better? I mean, he was better in 4 out of like 17 years, and that is at the very tail end of Duncan's career, and even Duncan, in those years, have 2 years where even YOU had to concede is better than Kobe. Let me know, how in the world is Kobe better?



You quoted me, so I responded, and from what I saw, I am the only one who responded to you.

And other people's opinions, even though they are Spurs fans, do not change mine. In fact, Duncan's ability to still anchor a championship contending team's defense at 37 years old speaks volumes about how good he was, even though he didn't win the championship. The myopic view of that even Ray Allen's 3 pointer missed would have made Duncan better, especially when Duncan wasn't even playing at that point, is beyond stupid, but according to your, and most other people's logic, it does.

Shaq > Kobe without question, and to me, Shaq ~ Duncan, you can make arguments for each, but I would say Duncan is greater due to his ability to adapt to different systems.

I said Tim was greater until 2007 ... but for me it was close (relative).
The rings and individual play since 2008 gave Kobe a distinct but still relatively slight edge.
The past two years Duncan turned back the clock so he narrowed the gap.
It being so close you know I go to rings.
Just my opinion and I wont go much deeper until they both call it quits.

But one new angle I will throw in ...is Pop.
In no way am I saying this to diminish Tim, who is my GOAT PF and for me clearly better than Shaq.
I dont see how you can argue they are even but whatever ... you like to factor in some took them out of the doldrums bull , when David did the same for the Spurs.
Just like with David Shaq could not ring without a better coach (PJ/Pop) or a a young HOF star to push them over the top (Kobe/duncan). Heck it took Wade acting MJ with shady calls for Shaq to get to 4.

Pop has proven with all the injuries he can still win. The man does not get enough credit. Sure he had Tim, but Duncan is lucky to have him as well. Take away Tony, KL, Tiago or Even Duncan ... it doesnt matter they still win.

It's the NBA version of Brady and Belicheck. It takes nothing away from either man ...but no way could Duncan have the same success at 37 under another coach.
I also doubt MJ/Kobe/Shaq could harness what they have without Phil.

Im sure MJ, Kobe, tim shaq still ring ...but all 4 have less jewelry without their HOF mentors tbh ...

Just something that gets lost in the debates ...Maybe I am getting old but great coaching I appreciate it more and more. And without it Shaq would be David Robinson tbh ...

[Koolaid_Man]

I said Tim was greater until 2007 ... but for me it was close (relative).
The rings and individual play since 2008 gave Kobe a distinct but still relatively slight edge.
The past two years Duncan turned back the clock so he narrowed the gap.
It being so close you know I go to rings.
Just my opinion and I wont go much deeper until they both call it quits.

But one new angle I will throw in ...is Pop.
In no way am I saying this to diminish Tim, who is my GOAT PF and for me clearly better than Shaq.
I dont see how you can argue they are even but whatever ... you like to factor in some took them out of the doldrums bull , when David did the same for the Spurs.
Just like with David Shaq could not ring without a better coach (PJ/Pop) or a a young HOF star to push them over the top (Kobe/duncan). Heck it took Wade acting MJ with shady calls for Shaq to get to 4.

Pop has proven with all the injuries he can still win. The man does not get enough credit. Sure he had Tim, but Duncan is lucky to have him as well. Take away Tony, KL, Tiago or Even Duncan ... it doesnt matter they still win.

It's the NBA version of Brady and Belicheck. It takes nothing away from either man ...but no way could Duncan have the same success at 37 under another coach.
I also doubt MJ/Kobe/Shaq could harness what they have without Phil.

Im sure MJ, Kobe, tim shaq still ring ...but all 4 have less jewelry without their HOF mentors tbh ...

Just something that gets lost in the debates ...Maybe I am getting old but great coaching I appreciate it more and more. And without it Shaq would be David Robinson tbh ...

geez dude stop being a pacifist already...it was never close...you're trying to sit here and tow the line that Duncan was better than Shaq and Kobe up until 2007 and now Kobe barely edges him out and only because of rings...you're gotdam bat crazy like all these other re ed ass Spur fans... Duncan better than Shaq and Kobe you might as well ing say it already..this is insane.....Kobe shat on those SPurs teams even when he didn't have no help....name for me Duncan's worst team he had to lead compared to Kobe's....how many head coaches has Duncan played for vs Kobe....how many ball dominant players have Duncan had to play with compared to Kobe...man yall s are somking so other ...on the cool...that nikka ain't no where close to Kobe and peer acknowledgement says it all....you're a so called Laker fan..grow a pair and stop being scared to speak the truth to these Ho's you could learn a thing or two from Kool about how to keep it real tbh

[Budkin]

I would put Duncan in the top 10.

Didn't see that one coming

[tlongII]

Didn't see that one coming

He's a great player. I recognize greatness.