First Take "Debates" Who Had a Better Career: Kobe or Duncan

[z0sa]

"Had" seems to imply Tim's career is over too.

[dbreiden83080]

And he still needed Lamar Odom and Ron Artest to hit the clutch shots for him in the two he won without Shaq.

None of us are big Jackson fans but he deserves enormous credit for making that work. It's crazy to say that you can have the chance to play with another great player and be unhappy over attention but that was sorely the case for Shaq and Kobe.. Probably only Jackson, Pop and Riley could have made that work with the egos involved..

[Poolboy5623]

I can't even believe there is a debate about this. I could see an argument b4 timmy got 5, but now it's case closed imo.

[admiralsnackbar]

Four questions:

How much of Kobe's tumultuous history was caused by Kobe?

What was the LA payroll compared to SA's during their years of contention?

How many all-starts or HOFers played for the Lakers vs. the Spurs?

Didn't Tim have to play the 3, 4, and 5 (some could argue the 1, as well) just as Kobe had to play the 1, 2 and 3?

[DMC]

So now staying with the team = overcoming hardship.

Got it.

If SAS cannot make a better argument than that, he's already conceded. He'll admit it after Kobe retires and he doesn't need exclusive access any more.

[DMC]

Four questions:

How much of Kobe's tumultuous history was caused by Kobe?

What was the LA payroll compared to SA's during their years of contention?

How many all-starts or HOFers played for the Lakers vs. the Spurs?

Didn't Tim have to play the 3, 4, and 5 (some could argue the 1, as well) just as Kobe had to play the 1, 2 and 3?

How many pay cuts did Kobe take to help the team remain compe ive?

Kobe was a rider on a franchise that could have had 8 rings had the relationship been more symbiotic and less parasitic.

[admiralsnackbar]

100% in agreement, although there's a question about how that reflects on him as a player on the court. It affected his team's construction, so it was strategically unwise to be so greedy, but it doesn't directly account for his play/accomplishments, if that makes sense.

[Obstructed_View]

None of us are big Jackson fans but he deserves enormous credit for making that work. It's crazy to say that you can have the chance to play with another great player and be unhappy over attention but that was sorely the case for Shaq and Kobe.. Probably only Jackson, Pop and Riley could have made that work with the egos involved..

I think everyone agrees that Phil Jackson is a great coach, but that has to be mitigated a bit by his opportunities to step into situations where someone else had assembled monster rosters.

But I agree with you. The fact that he could win with Kobe at all is incredible, as Kobe is his own biggest obstacle. If he weren't a ball-hog, a stat-padder, a terrible teammate, didn't cry to the media when things didn't go his way and didn't take every penny available to him, who knows how many les he could have won?

Pop would have traded Kobe or gone somewhere else. No ing way he puts up with that . He'd rather coach girls' high school basketball than have to deal with that drama.

[UZER]

Stephen A Doesn't even believe his own argument. He's can't be that dumb.

He just has Kobes back because Kobe gave him the exclusives.

[ironman2886]

Stephen A only supports the brothers from big cities.

[dbreiden83080]

I think everyone agrees that Phil Jackson is a great coach, but that has to be mitigated a bit by his opportunities to step into situations where someone else had assembled monster rosters.

But I agree with you. The fact that he could win with Kobe at all is incredible, as Kobe is his own biggest obstacle. If he weren't a ball-hog, a stat-padder, a terrible teammate, didn't cry to the media when things didn't go his way and didn't take every penny available to him, who knows how many les he could have won?

Pop would have traded Kobe or gone somewhere else. No ing way he puts up with that . He'd rather coach girls' high school basketball than have to deal with that drama.

Well we know how Pop is in SA with the team first approach so the only way Kobe gets along with Pop is if he accepts that type of culture change. I think Pop would make it work after severe headaches for a few seasons but certainly he's had it easy with D-Rob and Timmy as his two biggest stars..

[HI-FI]

Four questions:

How much of Kobe's tumultuous history was caused by Kobe?

What was the LA payroll compared to SA's during their years of contention?

How many all-starts or HOFers played for the Lakers vs. the Spurs?

Didn't Tim have to play the 3, 4, and 5 (some could argue the 1, as well) just as Kobe had to play the 1, 2 and 3?

this.

Kobe ed his way onto the most en led team in the league, and got everything his way in regards to loaded rosters, massive payroll etc...It still took a rigged trade and 2002 WCF to get Kobe to five rings. A single, small market championship is more impressive than a large market outspending everyone else and getting favorable officiating. The amount of calls it took for the Lakers to simply get to the playoffs last year shows they get the easy path more often than not.

This debate was finished years ago as far as I'm concerned, but should be dead even amongst casual fans for Duncan tying Rapist in Finals, since casuals only pay attention to that crap.

[Obstructed_View]

Well we know how Pop is in SA with the team first approach so the only way Kobe gets along with Pop is if he accepts that type of culture change. I think Pop would make it work after severe headaches for a few seasons but certainly he's had it easy with D-Rob and Timmy as his two biggest stars..

I can't see it. Kobe ran Phil Jackson out of town the first time, and even their rigged trade for Gasol couldn't have enticed him to swallow his pride without Jeanie Buss as an X factor.