It's impossible to talk with Kirbstans, Mid. Accept that fact, or die tired.
No doubt.
I just want to point out my take wasn't strictly about Kobe vs Dirk because it's useless arguing anything with Kobe in it. But the reality of it all is, these rankings are not based in "stats" or "advance statistics" alone.
FWIW, Ive always felt Dirk's 2011 run is overrated. He was great against the Lakers and OKC but people seem to overlooked he struggled in the Finals, shooting a paltry 41% on the field.
ok. now apply that logic to our discussion in the thread. you agree that media manipulation/image/marketing aside, Jabbar is a better player than Magic. so using those same parameters, we are discussing who is the better player.
Kobe had better teammates and one of the great coaches.
How many rings would Dirk have if he had all the stacked rosters from Kobe's playing career?
Not everybody puts Kobe above Dirk. In fact, the most reputable fan-based poll has Dirk ahead: http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi
Put dirk on the 2009 and 10 teams as a gigantic shooting guard and the lakers win 2 straight.
Put Kobe on the Mavs in 2011 and they are at best a 2nd round casualty.
Kobe's best teammates:
- Prime Shaq, who was as dominating as any player at his peak, even if that was only from 1999-2003.
- Pau Gasol, who at his peak was definitely a top 10-15 player.
- Lamar Odom, who at his peak was a top 25-30 player from 2005-2011
- Andrew Bynum, who was inconsistent and injury-prone but was definitely a very good player when motivated and healthy from 2008-2011.
Dirk's best teammates:
- borderline All Star Steve Nash, not franchise PG Steve Nash, from 2001-2004.
- Michael Finley, another borderline All Star player, from 1999-2004.
- Josh Howard, who put together two All Star caliber seasons from 2006-2007
- Jason Terry, who at his peak was probably a top 30 player in the league from 2005-2011.
You put Dirk next to prime Shaq, you're equaling anything Shaq and Kobe did together. I don't know that a porous defensive front line of Pau and Dirk wins a le together, much less two, but I also am not sure that Kobe lifts that 2011 Mavs team to a championship in place of Dirk either. So much of the NBA is putting the right players together in the right situation. Kobe was also coached by P-Jax for most of his career. Before Carlisle, Dirk had Nellie and Avery, both good but flawed coaches. Also keep in mind that the Lakers are a free agent destination whereas that has never been true of Dallas. It's easier for teams like the Lakers to get good players to come play for them than the Mavs. The Lakers definitely have had it a tiny bit easier when it comes to roster construction.
Even though on rings it's Kobe 5: Dirk 1, I think after they've both retired, you can arguably make a case for either player being better than the other.
Last edited by Findog; 07-23-2014 at 12:15 PM.
48Not everybody puts Kobe above Dirk. In fact, the most reputable fan-based poll has Dirk ahead: http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi
I rather have Dirk (in both prime and now) in my team.
Got to give Dirk and the mavs major credit and team always comes first. If Spurs don't win it next year the mavs will
Also, look at these guys and the worst teams they played on:
When you surround Dirk with complete spares and he misses 27 games, they still finish 41-41 (2013). When Kobe played a full season with spares, they went like 34-48 (2005).
There's not a valid argument for putting Kobe ahead outside of coattailing Shaq and Gasol for rings.
Dirk doesn't rank highly on most people's all time lists because he wasn't a good defender, and he only has 1 ring. If he had been a good defender, he would probably have a handful of rings by now and be a lock for top 5 of all time.
As Findog wrote, there are many other things than just the ringcount of two players, also the teammates matter and other things. Probably the Laker fans on this board are now going to crucify me, but well...I am NOT saying Dirk is definitely better than Kobe, but before you make a judgement, you should definitely look behind the pure amount of rings. Otherwise, Horry > Jordan.
If you look at Dirk's postseasons there are some cases which could be taken into account. He had a magical run in 06 as well, let's not discredit that, and his 09 run was one of the best post-season runs in the last 5 years posting a 126 oRTG, .238 WS/48, 64 TS%, 28% usage rate. Especially the stats vs. Denver were great with 34.4/ 11.6/4.0 on 53/39/92). From 06-11, Dirks playoffs statistics are better than any 6 year stretch Kobe has had in the post-season. Actually, Kobe doesn't come close to that 6 year stretch in terms of impact or efficiency during any stretch of his post-season career. Dirk is a 24 PER, 58TS%, 117 oRTG, 27.3% USG, .196 ws/48 career playoff performer while Kobe is a 22 PER, 54 TS%, 110 oRTG, 31% USG, .157 WS/48. You could still add more examples, but the point stands as that argument is a solid ground for Dirk > Kobe.
You can also take Win Shares into account. Dirk has more OWS, DWS and thus, also total WS than Kobe despite having played 57 games less (1188 to 1245). If you translate that into WS/game, Dirk is also better.
Regular season:
Dirk:
OWS: 0.11
DWS: 0.04
Total WS: 0.155
Kobe:
OWS: 0.09
DWS: 0.03
Total WS: 0.138
Playoffs:
Dirk:
OWS: 0.128
DWS: 0.038
Total WS: 0.167
Kobe:
OWS: 0.095
DWS: 0.033
Total WS: 0.128
If you look at the last decade, Dirk basically played mistake-free offense. He didn't turn the ball over, rarely took bad shots (and when he did, he had an almost supernatural ability to hit them). I know it's cliche, but he really was the guy who just made the right play at the right time.
Advanced stats show heavily in Dirk's favor. And not just TS%, where he has a big advantage, but Dirk put up a 119 ORTG for an entire decade, including a peak of 123, which he did twice. (for reference, Kobe's peak ORTG was 115, which he did x3). Dirk's peak PER is higher than Kobe as well.
And above all, his skill set seemed to maximize even marginal players who play next to him. Think of J.J.. Barea destroying the Lakers on the pick and roll in 2011. His skill set is so incredibly valuable to an offense, as he necessitates a big guarding him out to the three point line, and he needs to be doubled anywhere below the free throw line. He draws fouls at an incredible rate, and mostly against other teams' shot blockers and big men.
I think this outweighs his deficiencies in playmaking and volume scoring in comparison to Kobe.
If you know look at Dirk and Kobe in their probably best postseasons, there are other hints. For Kobe that's likely 2009 and for Dirk 2011 (although some might argue for 2006 despite not ringing).
Dirk has a few things going in his favor. There is a model of RAPM on realgm, took it from there as a measurement. According to Doc MJ's RAPM normalization method, Dirk's 2011 measured out as more impressive per 100 possessions than Kobe's 2009. Those seasons marked career bests for both, with Kobe's +8.10 in 2009 barely edging his +8.09 in 2008. Dirk's +11.5 is the 8th highest score recorded between 1998 and 2012, marking it as up in the rarefied air among peak seasons.
Interestingly, the offense/defense breakdown of those score runs exactly opposite to the commonly held view of the 2 players but does lend support to those saying that Kobe had to carry a bit more offensive load than Dirk. On offense, 2009 Kobe slightly edged 2011 Dirk at +7.7 vs +7.5. The bigger difference showed up on defense, as Dirk's +4 trounced Kobe's +0.5.
Looking into the numbers, there is room for surprise and pushback. Dirk's a better defender than his rep, but +4 is a big number. That would essentially match the average 5-year peak value of Ron Artest or match the best mark Gerald Wallace ever produced. Also, 2011 marked a huge defensive uptick for Dirk in this measure as over the previous 5 years his defensive score was +0.6. I've seen some attribute it to Tyson Chandler, but Mystic has debunked that pretty thoroughly. Ive also seen Mystic attribute some of his defensive score to his offensive efficiency, but then I wonder why that wasn't having a similar effect in previous years. Maybe Carlisle just found a smarter way to use him that year, and Dirk's higher level just showed through.
In my personal opinion Dirk of course has flaws in his defense. I don't count know his series against the Spurs this year as he really fell off a cliff in against them. Time will tell if that was just bad luck or if his limitations really have taken over. He was never a great defender, but far way from as bad as many people on the forums think. But if you now go back to into 2011, he was still a quite solid defender, and still a great team rebounder because Dirk still blocks out. He also has great hands, is a pretty effective man post defender, and while not a great shot-blocker, not a horrible one either.
There were also talks in the past of Dirk's defense in that postseason. According to Synergy stats, Here are Gasol's stats when guarded by Dirk:
7-18 FG (.389), 3 TOV, 2 Fouls Drawn, 0.67 points per play.
Here are Dirk's stats when he guarded Aldridge, Gasol, Ibaka, and Bosh:
18-49 FG (.367), 7 TOV, 0.68 points per play
And talking about offense back in 2011, think about a starting lineup of Jason Kidd, DeShawn Stevenson, Shawn Marion, and Tyson Chandler. Does anyone really think that's a great offensive quartet? All I hear is how horrible Kidd and Marion are offensively and this is hardly the prime version of either. DeShawn and Tyson are defensive specialists. And off the bench you have JET who is a very good offensive player, and...... Think about that. Dallas was beating teams with great team offense and team defense and Dirk was the piece that made it all work. And Kobe definitely had the better second, third and fourth options. Pau, Odom, Ariza are all much better offensively than Terry, Marion, and Kidd.
Whatever the case may be, for those that like to "throw advanced stats" at people, Dirk's 2011 measured out as a higher impact than Kobe's 2009 by this approach. Keep in mind, though, that it's a per possession measure. Kobe played slightly more minutes than Dirk in both the regular season and the playoffs, but ultimately not enough to overcome the difference in scores.
Finally, about the compe ions both teams faced:
The Mavs compe ion in 2011 was infinitely tougher than what the Lakers faced in 2009.
Utah was average. (48-34)
Houston was no more than pretty good (53-29) a grand total of one playoff series win in the Yao/McGrady era
Denver- see Houston. (54-28) Never won a playoff series outside of that season.
Orlando was a good team (59-23). But one of the weaker Finals teams of the past 10 years. Boston was probably the best team in the East but KG got hurt.
Compare that to the Mavs.
Portland (48-34) even with Utah
Los Angeles Lakers (57-25) 2009 and 2010 NBA Champions. By far better than any of the teams above
OKC Thunder (55-27) Won the Western Conference the year after losing to the Mavs
Miami Heat (58-24) Way better team than the Orlando Magic. Way better than any of the Lakers 2009 opponents. 2012 and 2013 NBA Champions.
Another gem regarding Dirk and Kobe for that particular issue:
This favors Dirk significantly. Here are the rankings from BBR which is O rating and D rating adjusted for HCA and opponents http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9217
Post-deadline, The Thunder were the #3 in the league, Lakers #4, and Blazers #9.
Blazers: The Blazers were a 5.35 SRS team with Gerald Wallace. They improved to 7.76 SRS in the 14 games he started (beat the Spurs x2, Mavs x2, Lakers, Grizzlies, and Thunder). They also significantly out talented the Mavs. Here is the comparison between the two teams minus their best player:
Blazers: Wallace, Miller, Camby, Matthews, Roy, Batum, and Fernandez. That is a significant talent gap. Gerald Wallace would be the best player on the Mavs. Everyone one of those guys is solid.
Lakers: In the 2nd half of the year+1st round, the Lakers had a 7.71 SRS in the games Bynum played.
Lakers: Gasol, Bynum, Odom, MWP, Fisher, Barnes, Blake, Brown
Another significant talent gap. Gasol, Bynum and Odom would have been the best players on the Mavs (ignoring Odom's horrific Mavs stint). This talent gap is around the same level as the 04 Lakers vs. 04 Wolves except the Mavs swept the Lakers without HCA while the TWolves lost with HCA in 6 games. I don't think the talent was big enough to overcome the 6 game gap in outcome.
Thunder: 7.22 SRS in the games Perkins played+first 2 rounds. Look at the linkI posted up earlier. The Thunder were a top 3-5 team post deadline. This is another team with a big gap in talent:
Thunder: Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Perkins, Collison, Thabo, Maynor
Westbrook is easily much better than any of the players Dirk played with. Harden would be right up there with Dirk's 2nd best player. Harden averaged 15-6-4, 126 O rating, .634 TS%, per 36 minutes in the playoffs. Terry was 19-4-2, 119 O rating, .604 TS% in the playoffs so both of those guys were not far off. And Terry was Dirk's 2nd best player in the playoffs. It's a very close comparison if you take into account what Terry was doing with Dirk off the court (.551 TS%). Ibaka, Perkins, and Collison are better than the non-Chandler/Marion/Terry players. This Thunder team was better than the 04 Kings.
Heat: This is self-explanatory. One of the biggest upsets in finals history based on talent. The Heat entered the finals with a 27-6 record and 9.25 SRS in their past 33 games as they got healthy (Miller and Haslem being healthy). Overall for the whole season, the Heat had a 7.82 SRS in the games that the Big 3 played. The Big 3 over the past 2 years were a +14.4 team when they were on the court together and in the finals they played about 40 MPG. The Heat got rid of some of their bad players and played Chalmers, Miller, Haslem, and Anthony more. This was an elite team that beat just came off of beating the Bulls without HCA in 5 games. The Bulls with their starters healthy were a +8.14 SRS team and the Heat easily beat them.
Heat: Wade, Bosh, Chalmers, Haslem, Miller, Anthony, Bibby
The only real horrible player there is Bibby but his minutes were reduced in the finals. Wade was another level compared to Dirk's players. Wade was an MVP caliber player. Bosh was an all-star who was also better than Dirk's cast. Chalmers, Haslem, and Miller would have fit well with Dirk's role players. If KG lost this series, his fans would make so many excuses saying he couldn't be expected to beat LeBron/Wade and Bosh at the same time (see how a loss to a weaker Shaq/Kobe duo was excused). Dirk did it himself (had a Plus/minus of +40 in the finals). And Dirk also did it without HCA advantage on his side. You can't tell me the gap in talent between 04 Wolves and Lakers is that much bigger than the gap between 11 Mavs and Heat to explain the huge difference in outcomes.
Dirk beat 6 out of the 9 non-Dirk players in the All-NBA first and 2nd teams. And Dirk beat 3 teams that each had 2 1st/2nd team All-NBA players. The Heat also added an All-star in Bosh who wasn't an All-NBA player. Aldridge also made 3rd team all-NBA and Dirk outplayed him H2H. So that's 7 All-NBA players and 8 All-stars (would have been 9 if Bynum was healthy all year). Yet Dirk did this with no all-stars on his side. Dirk hasn't had an All-star player by his side since 2007 and hasn't had an All-NBA player since 2003 yet he had plenty of success in that span.
Jim went out like a beotch too (See my sig to re-live his last NBA shat players EVER taking paycuts!
_irk plays no D so none if he literally replaced Kobe. His Mavs shot the lights out in 2011, never to be seen again. One and done son. Just like many other players who failed to repeat
Boiled down: Kobe has a 4-2 H2H record vs the GOAT PF and your Sp*rs. Unless _irk can top that, Kobe > _irkAside from ring count, Kobe doesn't measure up to the Big German.
Raw per game playoff stats:
Dirk: 25.6ppg, 10.6rpg, 2.5apg, 1.1stl, 0.9blk, .461FG, .579TS%
Kobe: 25.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 4.7apg, 1.4stl, 0.7blk, .448FG, .541TS%
Advantage Dirk
Advanced playoff stats:
Dirk: PER - 24.2
Kobe: 22.4
Offensive rating:
Dirk: 117
Kobe: 110
Defensive rating:
Dirk: 107
Kobe: 106
Win Shares per 48:
Dirk: .196
Kobe: .157
Advantage Dirk
Clutch:
Advantage Dirk
Head-to-head (not a big fan of this arbitrary stat, but Kobe fans love it, so I'll include it):
Advantage Dirk
The only edge Kobe has is 2 Finals MVPs to 1, but Dirk has only been to two NBA Finals in his career, so the sample sizes aren't really fair. No doubt detractors will bring up Dirk's choke jobs, but we can't forget that Kobe got outplayed by Austin Croshere in the 2000 Finals, singlehandedly shot the Lakers out of a le in '04, choked a 3 to 1 lead to the Suns in '06, shot 6-19 in the historic game 4 of the '08 NBA Finals, which saw the Celtics storm back from a 24 point road deficit (NBA record), got destroyed by the largest Finals closeout game deficit in NBA history (39 points), and would've been labeled a choker had the Celtics finished the job in '10.
Obviously the difference is Kobe had Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom while the best big Dirk ever got to play alongside with was Tyson Chandler.
Other than "rings" there's no argument one can make that places Kobe above Dirk on the all-time great list.
And no, "rings" isn't the only argument "you need."
Kobe shot like 30% his last year and his team won like 15 games lol
Jim went out like a beotch too (See my sig to re-live his last NBA sh
His team tanked, just like _irk's Mavs this year.
Who is det in your dig sn?
Kobe never won a playoff game against Dirk.
Kobe never won a playoff game against Dirk.
I'm German and I'm biased for Dirk but tbh Kobe is in another tier.
Defensively they are worlds apart and this in itself makes them fall in different tiers.
Offensively kobe has slightly more variety and he is also a much better playmaker (when he wants to).
Also Kobe responds better to physicality and tough situations.
Also Kobe was much more marketable and that led to easy calls -> freebies.
So realitically speaking kobe is closer to lebron than to Dirk imo. No shame in saying it tbh, kobe/lebron/duncan/shaq are all generational complete (O+D+leadership) players, while dirk was an mvp level player but not a generational complete player.
Also lol STATs usage
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
