NBA Retrometrics: David Robinson Underrated

[exstatic]

Would have loved to see Robinson go against Gilmore with both in their prime. Artis is truly one of the most under rated centers of all time (prime time spent in ABA), but the most under rated Spurs center by Spur fans apecifically is Swen Nater.

The ridiculous thing about Nater is how good he was, leading both the ABA and NBA in rebounding, and he never started a Division I game. He was Walton's backup at UCLA for 2 years.

[Ice009]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.

That would have been sick. Did the Spurs really have a chance to get Barkley?

Also, what year did he almost trade Drob for Ewing? I'm a Spurs/Drob fan since '93, but I'm not in the US, so I couldn't watch hardly of the games or follow what was going on in the NBA that closely. Not sure if I would have continued being a Spurs fan if they traded David Robinson.

They used to show a random NBA game every week here back then. Other than that, the only way I could get NBA news is this newspaper we had over here that was dedicated to the NBA. That came out once a week too. First full NBA game I saw was Spurs Vs Magic, Drob Vs Shaq and David had over 40 points that game if I recall correctly. Been a fan since. I thought Drob was a total beast. Didn't mind Dale Ellis either, but apart from that, looking back at it now, that team was very thin in talent. I also didn't know at the time that Dale Ellis was towards the end of his career and past his prime.

Drob may not have had much of a post game, but he was still a great, great player. The overall talent he had on those teams sucked. He carried them through the regular season to win records they had no business having. I wasn't able to follow the Spurs his first few years in the NBA, but it seems that's the most talent he had around him was during those years. They really shouldn't have been cheap and should have paid to surround him with better players. I thought the owner back then didn't have much money, so I thought that was the reason they couldn't get a lot of talent to surround David with. You can't expect one man to do it all and take a bunch of scrubs to the Championship.

That's a freaking joke if he was a billionaire and I'm pissed off if that is true about him having the money to spend and he still refused to spend some to build a decent team around Drob. Why did he end up selling the team if he had that much money? I thought the team would have been sold by the previous owners because of money issues?

[Beaverfuzz]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.

There would be no Timmuh on the Spurs...he'd be a Celt.

[baseline bum]

That would have been sick. Did the Spurs really have a chance to get Barkley?

timvp is pretty solid with his sources, and he said the trade was agreed to but Red nixed it because he didn't want to pay him.

Also, what year did he almost trade Drob for Ewing? I'm a Spurs/Drob fan since '93, but I'm not in the US, so I couldn't watch hardly of the games or follow what was going on in the NBA that closely. Not sure if I would have continued being a Spurs fan if they traded David Robinson.

Probably 92 or so, considering Holt bought the team in 93. There was some biography of McCombs that came out a couple of years ago where he said he came close to dumping DRob to New York for Ewing. Had he salary dumped David I surely wouldn't have continued as a Spurs fan either.

That's a freaking joke if he was a billionaire and I'm pissed off if that is true about him having the money to spend and he still refused to spend some to build a decent team around Drob. Why did he end up selling the team if he had that much money? I thought the team would have been sold by the previous owners because of money issues?

He just wanted to cash out and Holt stepped to the plate in 93 to keep the team in San Antonio. Spurs fans have had it pretty good with great owners like Drossos and Holt for the majority of the team's time in San Antonio.

[baseline bum]

There would be no Timmuh on the Spurs...he'd be a Celt.

True, but that doesn't excuse McCombs being so cheap with the team. McCombs is pretty much responsible for David Robinson's legacy being one of underachievement to the media and most fans. He broke up a monster of a team because Vinny Del Negro was way cheaper. Red.

[Das Texan]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.

Just ing imagine Drossos owning the Spurs during the era really.

McCombs did the same by and large with the Vikings if I recall. Makes those pennies scream bloody murder before leaving his tight ass pocket.

[Das Texan]

True, but that doesn't excuse McCombs being so cheap with the team. McCombs is pretty much responsible for David Robinson's legacy being one of underachievement to the media and most fans. He broke up a monster of a team because Vinny Del Negro was way cheaper. Red.

I remember when they tired to sell Del Negro as this amazing replacement player.

My 13 year old brain bought into it hook, line and sinker too!

[Brunodf]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.

No #1 pick in 1997 though...

[duncan_21]

I think guys like noah, tyson chandler, ben wallace, are criminally underrated especially by the casual fan. These guys are more valuable then alot of fan favorite players who put up great fantasy stats. The same goes for drob, hakeem. Both guys were elite defensive players w/elite offensive skills. I think it's criminally stupid when ppl claim michael jordan as being the best player to ever play when I think garnett, duncan, drob, ewing, prime shaq when he gave a about defense, and hakeem were all better players. You get your elite offense and defense from one guy, and an elite big man is so much more important than an elite perimeter defender. I won't comment on kareem and wilt, I never got to seem them play and I'm not sure how they'd stack up to modern players.

For the guy who didn't see drob in his prime. Robinson compares to prime tyson chandler, but a bit more athletic, much better hands, had a jump shot, much better passer, and he had more strength. The reason robinson had problems in the playoffs was he was constantly surrounded by guys who couldn't shoot and he really didn't have a great back to the basket game(eye test).

If you look at that 95 team they had 3 guys who could hit a 3. These are playoff stats: elliott 36.4%, rivers 37%, and del negro who only put up 1.3 3 pointers/game shot 45%. When you got Johnson/delnegro/elliott/rodman/drob starting, defenders can cheat all day off of rodman and johnson.

[ajh18]

For the guy who didn't see drob in his prime. Robinson compares to prime tyson chandler, but a bit more athletic, much better hands, had a jump shot, much better passer, and he had more strength. The reason robinson had problems in the playoffs was he was constantly surrounded by guys who couldn't shoot and he really didn't have a great back to the basket game(eye test).

I'd go a step further and say that in his prime, Robinson was like a better Dwight Howard defensively (maybe not quite as good on the boards), and a prime Amare Stoudemire on offense. He was far better than any center in the league today, and regularly won matchups with Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, and the other dominant 90's centers before his back issues really set in.

[mudyez]

David is a center, and they're PFs.

I know, but they are all basketball players aren't they?

[SpurPadre]

DRob is the reason I'm a Spurs fan. Beast!

He was the reason I became a Spurs fan, too and I'm a lifelong Californian. But once you're in, there's no going back. Spurs fan for life!
Da Admiral' s class, professionalism and sportsmanship continues to carry over the franchise to this day. For all the he gets for the Hakeem 95 WCF matchup, his numbers in that series were: 23.8 points 11.3 rebounds 2.7 assists 1.5 steals and 2.1 blocks. Good numbers on a team he had to carry on his back. Hakeem was simply phenomenal and took his game to another level that postseason and had better teammates around him than 5-0. And it's not like we got swept in that series like Shaq did in the Finals vs. Hakeem.

[Snaq O'Meal]

He was the reason I became a Spurs fan, too and I'm a lifelong Californian. But once you're in, there's no going back. Spurs fan for life!
Da Admiral' s class, professionalism and sportsmanship continues to carry over the franchise to this day. For all the he gets for the Hakeem 95 WCF matchup, his numbers in that series were: 23.8 points 11.3 rebounds 2.7 assists 1.5 steals and 2.1 blocks. Good numbers on a team he had to carry on his back. Hakeem was simply phenomenal and took his game to another level that postseason and had better teammates around him than 5-0. And it's not like we got swept in that series like Shaq did in the Finals vs. Hakeem.

Let's put this into perspective... David put up those numbers while he was double-teamed and triple-teamed, AND he had to burn energy guarding Hakeem on the defensive end without much help from his own team mates.

[Ice009]

Let's put this into perspective... David put up those numbers while he was double-teamed and triple-teamed, AND he had to burn energy guarding Hakeem on the defensive end without much help from his own team mates.

I never got to watch any of the games. Just highlights, but I've read what you've said numerous times before over the years. Did you watch all the games? Did David really have to guard Hakeem one on one for most of the series, and did the Rockets really give Hakeem that much help to guard Drob? Was Drob doubled for a lot/most of the game or just in the 4th quarters? How did David do when he was matched up one on one?

[SpurPadre]

Let's put this into perspective... David put up those numbers while he was double-teamed and triple-teamed, AND he had to burn energy guarding Hakeem on the defensive end without much help from his own team mates.

Exactly.

[SpurPadre]

I never got to watch any of the games. Just highlights, but I've read what you've said numerous times before over the years. Did you watch all the games? Did David really have to guard Hakeem one on one for most of the series, and did the Rockets really give Hakeem that much help to guard Drob? Was Drob doubled for a lot/most of the game or just in the 4th quarters? How did David do when he was matched up one on one?

It wasn't like Hakeem was helpless to guard Da Admiral one on one but he was by far the only player the Rockets were worried about so the team sold out on d to give him as little space as possible. Admiral had to force alot of tough shots and averaged a high 4.5 turnovers a game in the series. Hakeem averaged 1.33 steals in the series which shows he had some help in forcing those turnovers.

[ambchang]

A center needs guards to spread the floor so that they can operate down low. If perimeter players can't nail open shots, the spacing will not be there, and a center will suffocate.

Pick out who are the two worst players in this line up:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry west
Magic Johnson
Byron Scott
Norm Nixon
Andrew Toney
Penny Hardaway
Vernon maxwell
Sam cassell
Kobe Bryant
Tony Parker
Manu ginobili
Avery Johnson
Vinny del negro

[scanry]

David would've had a ring in the MJ era had McCombs spent the money he donated to UT Austin on the Spurs tbh. How much did he donate BTW?

[FromWayDowntown]

The 1995 West Finals was the most important series that David Robinson played in before Tim Duncan arrived in San Antonio and history will forever discount David, unfortunately, because his team came up short and his direct rival played one of the handful of the very best playoff series ever. When you only really get one chance to be the man on that sort of stage and then you get upstaged by the all-time great who plays opposite you, it will count against you. There are plenty of reasons the Spurs lost that series, but their inability to do anything to impede Hakeem was the primary culprit in that loss.

Having lived through it all, I think David's apex wasn't as good as Hakeem's and David's career isn't really comparable to Shaq's in terms of achievements or statistics (though I will say that David was a substantially better defender than Shaq). Ultimately, how you rank those guys is a fairly close call with ample basis to go in just about any direction. In his generation, I'd personally put Hakeem and Shaq before David in any ranking, but I don't think there's anyone else from that era -- and few players in history -- that I'd put in front of Mr. Robinson otherwise. David's teams were basically regular season overachievers who had fatal flaws that were readily exposed in a playoff series by good coaches and teams.

I have always wondered what might have happened if the group that played Portland down to the wire in 1990 (Robinson, mings, Elliott, Anderson, Strickland, coached by Larry Brown) could have stayed together the way the Duncan-Parker-Ginobili Spurs essentially have. That team, in 1990, was arguably a bad pass away from going to the Finals; they would have lost to the Pistons, but the perception of that group would have likely been very different had they gotten over that hump and the willingness to keep them together might have increased. Ultimately, Larry's personality would have never allowed him to stay long enough to see that to fruition and I don't think splitting them up caused the breakdowns of Terry mings (age) and Willie Anderson (injury). But it would have been fun to have watched the whole thing.

[Maddog]

My thoughts- not that they worth anything- and will re-iterate what a lot have already said.

The Admiral always kind of got the short end of the stick till the end. The 89-90 Spurs where loaded with young talent, but imploded due to injuries (Anderson, mings) age ( mings) bad behavior (Maxwell,Anderson and Strickland). Larry Brown compounded things and ownership didn't help. I still think back to that day when the Spurs where reduced to starting the season with Tark coaching and Del negro starting at point. Just 3 years after being loaded with potential (Willie Anderson was an incredible talent)

It wasn't until Lucas that anyone really understood that DRob wasn't a traditional back to the basket offensive center. To thin in trunk and blossomed when Lucas moved him out. And it wasn't till Pop that anyone utilized him properly defensively. This was a guy quick enough to switch on small forwards. Robinson was made for the type of defenses now played- zone based systems.

The 95 series with Houston- I watched it all (TV). A few thoughts- as said earlier in retrospect the Spurs didn't have a lot of talent- Avery Johnson wasn't the Avery of 99 and Del Negro versus Ellie or Drexler?
Add in Rodman doing whatever he wanted to do. Sure Hakeem outplayed Dave but not to the extent everyone thinks. Dave was double teamed. The Spurs couldn't double team because Rodman wouldn't stay with his man. Despite this it was 4-2 with the Spurs losing game 1 due to missed free throws and Horry's wide open 3 at the end.
I'm biased, but clearly he was underrated and under appreciated outside SA

[baseline bum]

Despite this it was 4-2 with the Spurs losing game 1 due to missed free throws and Horry's wide open 3 at the end.
I'm biased, but clearly he was underrated and under appreciated outside SA

As much as I wish I could forget that shot, I still remember clear as it was yesterday that Rob's game winner in Game 1 was from just outside the left elbow when Rodman left him wide open.

[ambchang]

Shawn Kemp went 22/14/2 on the Rockets in the 96 series vs. 18/10/2 for Hakeem, but nobody would ever say Kemp > Hakeem.

The Sonics matched up Hakeem well, and used a swarming defense and quickness to drastically reduce Hakeem's effectiveness. It's all about matchups at the end of the day.

Robinson, on the other hand, had many series where he underperformed against expectations, because there were MANY teams that matched up well with the Spurs. It was widely known the Spurs had no outside shooting, and the best way to beat them was to swarm the middle and force the perimeter players to beat you. Outside of Robinson, Elliott was the only person who can consistently create his own shot, which means that opposing teams can double/triple Robinson off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, or Rodman. When a player is constantly doubled and tripled, he underperforms. The trick is to have your teammates make up for your loss in productivity by nailing wide open shots.

There hasn't been one single player who did not suffer from a productivity standpoint when the opposition decides to suffocate you. Even the great michael Jordan had a letdown series against the sonics in 96, but nobody cares because the bulls won.

[lefty]

A center needs guards to spread the floor so that they can operate down low. If perimeter players can't nail open shots, the spacing will not be there, and a center will suffocate.

Pick out who are the two worst players in this line up:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry west
Magic Johnson
Byron Scott
Norm Nixon
Andrew Toney
Penny Hardaway
Vernon maxwell
Sam cassell
Kobe Bryant
Tony Parker
Manu ginobili
Avery Johnson
Vinny del negro

[lefty]

Shawn Kemp went 22/14/2 on the Rockets in the 96 series vs. 18/10/2 for Hakeem, but nobody would ever say Kemp > Hakeem.

The Sonics matched up Hakeem well, and used a swarming defense and quickness to drastically reduce Hakeem's effectiveness. It's all about matchups at the end of the day.

Robinson, on the other hand, had many series where he underperformed against expectations, because there were MANY teams that matched up well with the Spurs. It was widely known the Spurs had no outside shooting, and the best way to beat them was to swarm the middle and force the perimeter players to beat you. Outside of Robinson, Elliott was the only person who can consistently create his own shot, which means that opposing teams can double/triple Robinson off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, or Rodman. When a player is constantly doubled and tripled, he underperforms. The trick is to have your teammates make up for your loss in productivity by nailing wide open shots.

There hasn't been one single player who did not suffer from a productivity standpoint when the opposition decides to suffocate you. Even the great michael Jordan had a letdown series against the sonics in 96, but nobody cares because the bulls won.

In 1995, Hakeem had an army of clutch 3 points shooters

Those mofos made you pay

[Chinook]

So had Robinson had the Medium Three (as they are now) in 95, is anything different?