Lakers: Attn: Harlem and other advanced stat geeks, why are Kobe's plus/minus metrics so

[SupremeGuy]

Thanks for making this thread, I was just wondering about this stuff earlier.

[AlexJones]

lol that Steve Nash oRAPM

[Cry Havoc]

So KG is better than Jim. Ok.

In the regular season? Definitely arguable.

[FkLA]

I've never understood why it's so hard for the masses to see this. They don't even have to dig deep. The post-Shaq, pre-MVPau years are there. If they look just a little closer, it's clear as day that Kirby's solution to not having elite talent around him is to to 'prevent crime' and put it upon himself to do more individually.

Is it really that hard to conclude that that is a terrible formula for making other guys better? RAPM is just confirming the obvious tbh.

[midnightpulp]

You have to look at this from a different lens.

You have to understand how stack the current game is, and even an all-time great like Kobe would inadvertently suffer as a consequence.

Look at 2001-2002 season, widely known as Kobe's best season of the Shaq-led three peat seasons. Kobe ranked 20th that season, that is still 95 %tile or so of the league, which really is incredible. And when you look at the people ranked ahead of him, they are all all-time greats! Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, Garnett, Vlade Divac (if you are from Eastern Europe, Divac is basically God over there), Pierce (bested Kobe in the 08 Finals as well, and out-performed him in the 10 Finals in a losing effort), Wallace (one of the best defensive players of all time), Nowitzki, Baron Davis (the best fat PG of all time), and Steve Francis (the best mentally unstable NBA player of all time, tying Artest, Rodman and Marbury).

It's no shame for Kobe to be ranked below any of those players.

Then you look at the 08-09 season (which is the only season Kobe ever led his team in WS in a championship winning year, aka as the year MVPau against D12 in the Finals while Kobe went up against Hed), where Kobe ranked behind Lebron, CP3, Duncan (again), Dwade, D12, Garnett (again), Kidd, and Odom. Each one of them is a legend.

You guys make it out like he had a lesser impact than Mengke Bateer or Jud Buechler, when he was right along great players like Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd and Steve Francis.

Here's the updated RAPM that covers 14 seasons, and he's now actually fallen below Baron Davis.

http://public.tableausoftware.com/pr...APM/14YearRAPM

[Seventyniner]

Here's the updated RAPM that covers 14 seasons, and he's now actually fallen below Baron Davis.

http://public.tableausoftware.com/pr...APM/14YearRAPM

In before Amir Johnson

[Johnny RIngo]

The most damning thing about Kobe's RAPM numbers is his overall negative values on defense. For a guy that's been awarded so many All-Defensive selections it's pretty hilarious to see that Nash has played better defense than him over the past 14 years

[benstanfield]

These sorts of stats really take a wet on Melo tbh, 25th in O rank and 1,013th in D rank

[Johnny RIngo]

So I took the DRAPM(defensive RAPM) numbers of all the guards and small forwards and organized them from best to worst just to see where Kobe stacks up. He has 12 All-Defensive selections so he should be pretty high up there, right? I didn't include young guys like George, Butler, Green, Leonard, etc because it wouldn't be fair to compare TOSB Kobe with them so I only included players that could be considered his peers(or close enough).

4.0 - Tony Allen
3.4 - Metta
3.3 - Eddie Jones
3.1 - Bruce Bowen
3.1 - Christie
3.0 - Deng
2.8 - Iguodala
2.8 - Battier
2.8 - Thabo
2.5 - Marion
2.5 - G Wallace
2.2 - Lebron
2.2 - Pierce
2.2 - Eric Snow
1.9 - Ariza
1.7 - Manu
1.5 - Kidd
1.4 - Vince Carter
1.2 - Baron Davis
1.2 - Josh Howard
1.2 - Bobby Jackson
1.1 - James Posey
1.1 - Fisher
1.0 - Ronnie Brewer
0.9 - Devean George
0.9 - Luke Walton
0.9 - Mike Dunleavy
0.8 - Chris Paul
0.7 - Prince
0.7 - Earl Watson
0.7 - Anthony Parker
0.7 - Sasha Pavlovic
0.6 - Turkoglu
0.5 - McGrady
0.5 - Rashard Lewis
0.5 - TJ Ford
0.4 - Wade
0.4 - James Jones
0.3 - Rafer Alston
0.3 - Livingston
0.2 - Daniel Gibson
0.1 - Delfino
0.1 - Giricek
0.1 - Kyle Korver
0.1 - Matt Barnes
0.0 - Duhon
0.0 - Derek Anderson
-0.1 - Mobley
-0.2 - Tinsley
-0.2 - Joe Johnson
-0.2 - Raja Bell
-0.2 - Cassell
-0.3 - Andre Miller
-0.3 - Marco Jaric
-0.4 - Brent Barry
-0.4 - Rondo
-0.4 - SJax
-0.5 - Rip Hamilton
-0.5 - Jameer Nelson
-0.5 - Jordan Farmar
-0.5 - Keith Bogans
-0.5 - Reggie Miller
-0.5 - Mike James
-0.5 - Steve Francis
-0.5 - Courtney Lee
-0.5 - Granger
-0.6 - Dorrel Wright
-0.6 - Steve Nash
-0.6 - Tony Parker
-0.7 - Devin Harris
-0.7 - Grant Hill
-0.8 - Caron Butler
-0.8 - Stackhouse
-0.8 - Iverson
-0.9 - CJ Miles
-0.9 - Vaughn
-0.9 - John Salmons
-0.9 - Kobe

There's quite a few after Kobe but I didn't want to continue sorting through that list any longer than necessary. If you include all positions, Duncan and Garnett are at the top of the list for defense. Makes sense that those two have won so many All-Defensive selections. What the did Kobe do to get twelve of them though?

[Splits]

Kobe's still an elite defender despite all yous guys and your biased math: https://vine.co/v/OvAFmVF1gj5

[ElNono]

Where's Enrique, tbh?

[benstanfield]

Where's Enrique, tbh?

Mid 120s:

Hero
McDyess
Melo

tbh

[Malik Hairston]

- RAPM is better used by individual season IMO, rather than career(which includes declining years, etc)

- The RAPM numbers are actually season + playoffs, not just regular season..technically, you could use them as "regular season numbers", though, as obviously the regular season sample size is significantly larger than the playoffs(especially if you didn't make it to the Finals, obviously)

- Players with comparable possession and usage numbers should be compared to each other..players with lower possessions receive favorable RAPM numbers..even superstar players, like Shaq post-2002 and Duncan in a few years, played significantly less possessions, which helped boost their number

- It's better combined with other stats like VORP to give a full picture

- It's cool to look at both NPI RAPM along with regular RAPM, as sometimes the Prior-Informed makes the result a little flawed(sometimes a player will rank higher than he should in an injury year, due to reputation, for example)

- Number of times a player cracked +10 in a year(Shaq 2001, Shaq 2002, Duncan 2003, Shaq 2004, Duncan 2004, Garnett 2004, Duncan 2005, Duncan 2007, Lebron 2009, Lebron 2010, Lebron 2013)

[Splits]

Question: Name an NBA all-time top-20 player to be drafted outside the top-10 and start less than 10 games in their first 2 seasons combined.