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So Duncan isnt that great?
im surprise kareem wasnt more dominant during his era against midgets...
So Duncan isnt that great?
Damn here we go againneeded a skyhook to take advantage of 6'9 white stiffs
Have you seen him play?I know I'm speaking blasphemy here and will likely experience some vicious backlash from Kareem fans like Ambchang, who I'm in agreement with most of the time, but I can no longer, in good conscience, give Kareem GOAT consideration or even place him 2nd All Time. Kareem's legendary status doesn't exempt him from fair and detailed criticism.
So why is it that Kareem is an automatic top 2 player of all-time? Because he won 6 rings and stands atop the all-time scoring list?
Let's unpack his achievements.
The primary bulk of his scoring output was done in the 70's, most of it pre-merger, which was objectively the weakest and worst era in NBA history that led to the NBA nearly folding and the Finals being shown on tape delay. You had players like Elvin Hayes (size of small forward in today's game), pulling down 18 boards a game in some seasons while also averaging 25-28 points per game on poor shooting percentages. And Bob McAdoo was the "Jordan of the Era" consistently averaging over 30 points per game. Stats were ultra-inflated in this era. That's not to say Kareem wasn't a fantastic scorer, but he wouldn't be anywhere near as prolific today.
Kareem's defense. He was certainly an above average defender and made a good deal of All Defensive teams (granted, this was before writers really knew how to evaluate defense), but his (regular season) career and peak DBPM are pretty underwhelming for a big, 2.1 (career) and 4.0 (peak). For reference, Hakeem Olajuwon's numbers are 3.8 (career) and 5.9 (peak). Tim Duncan 4.0 (career) and 5.1 (peak). Kareem's playoff DBPM are identical, while Hakeem's are 4.7 and 9.0and Duncan's are 3.8 and 6.5.
"Who cares about all that, he's got six rings!"
As we know, rings are a team accomplishment, but Kareem could only be considered the "lead dog" on maybe two of his le teams. And during his 6th le run, he was definitively the 4th or 5th best player on the Lakers, and was actually a net negative during the playoffs, sporting a -1.4 BPM. Furthermore, his "raw" numbers were pretty mediocre. He averaged 14 and 5 on .464 shooting. Kareem's lack of impact during these latter years was validated when the Lakers made the Finals in '91 in a much tougher Western Conference. Sure, they didn't win the le, but ran into a young and hungry Bulls team with the greatest player of all-time on the roster. Worthy was also injured in that series.
Now, I'm not one to diminish les, but Kareem's first le came at a low point during the NBA. All of the great 60's players and teams were retired or far past their primes, and the Bucks kind of snuck in there, playing a terrible Bullets team that only won 42 games. It took Kareem 10 seasons to raise the trophy again and it just so happens that the 2nd greatest player of all-time (I'm upgrading Magic to that status) was drafted to the Lakers. And we all know about Magic's historic Finals performance that kind of made Kareem an afterthought. Further damning Kareem here is the fact that the team (which was still built around him), failed to get out of the 1st round the next season. Magic saw the writing on the wall, moved to fire Westhead, and bring in Riley, who'd bring Kentucky/Adolph Rupp style fast break, guard centric offense to the Lakers. The result: A le the very next season and 3 more to follow.
So why is he an automatic GOAT consideration again? I don't see a valid argument. I won't invoke advanced stats here, but Kareem's are not that much better, and in many cases worse, than other all time greats.
Now I know this analysis will dismissed by the usual suspect "old school" basketball fans (who are typically Laker fans), but I'm not reducing Kareem to Kobe Bryant status or anything silly like that. I think, after careful consideration, that 4th All Time is a fair placement for Kareem, with Duncan moving into the 3rd spot.
He was being facetious. The silly repeat argument Lakerfan invented applies to Kareem. He never repeated in his prime and was a ty role player with a negative impact on his team when he finally did repeat.
So if they're gonna knock Duncan for not repeating, it's only fair to knock Kareem.
Saw him play post prime. But the fact he didn't win during his peak tells me all I need to know. It took Magic rebuilding the team around himself to win Kareem any les after he snuck one against a 42 win team in '71.
Spin this one for me, Luva.
Most points scored. He didnt lose a ing game in college. Thats 3 NCAA les... to Jims 0. If they didnt red shirt freshmans back then it would have been 4. He has the most recognized signature move of any athlete in any sport.
Oh... and in his spare time he enjoyed smoking weed and making classic movies. What's Jim done?
NCAA les
Joakin Noah and career loser Carmelo have 3 between them.
Let's just stick to the Big Boy league, shall we?
No one could block it. Not even Wilt.
He was the Lakers best player on the 79 team that won it all though Magic dominated in Game 6 to win it all.
Magic never rang without Kareem either.
Oh boy. Spurritos will have a lot of time now to create some burrito threads now that their team is out of the playoffs.
Please.
Jim won his first one in a lockout season against a NY team with no Ewing. Kareem won four les during his peak. The last two he was carried by Magic and Worthy. I'd like to add that while Jim is getting booted out of the playoffs by players like Deandre Jordan late in his career... Kareem was facing legit centers. Gilmore, Hakeem, Sampson, Parish, Moses, Sikma.
Kareem's compe ion makes Jims look like .
Hakeem did
I don't get his argument. (Keep in mind, I am not ting on Kareem, but just knocking him down two spots.)
Kareem was terrible during the 88' Finals run, posting a net negative +/- and mediocre "raw" stats. Dumbasses like Luva will reduce it down to one play (Kareem drawing the bull foul on Laimbeer and then making two FTs, which saved the Lakers le hopes), but Kareem did pretty much all the entire playoffs, riding the backs of Magic, Worthy, and Scott.
Then after Kareem retired, it took Magic only a year to get back to the Finals. People have elevated that first Bulls team to Godlike status, but if Worthy was healthy, that could've been a different series, at the very least it goes more than 5 games, and that Bulls team was better than either the 87 Celtics or 88 Pistons.
Magic then a dude in the ass and has to retire, so we never know what could've been.
Of course he did... he closed out Phili on the road while Capt when getting dome at the playboy mansion.
The real crux of the matter ...thanks!
To knock Karriem down 2 spots would mean knocking Jim down 2 spots. Go ahead.
Those Laker teams in the mid to late 70s were trash outside of Kareem. They weren't gonna ring with Duncan, MJ, Lebron, etc. The 2nd best player was usually a young Adrian Dantley or Norm Nixon and not much else on those teams.
And legit centers like Dave Cowens (6'9") who outplayed him in '74
Peak Shaq was far better than any of those centers. Jack Sikma
Kevin Garnett, a far better defender than any of them save Hakeem. Dirk? A matchup nightmare and better offensive player than any of them except for, again, Hakeem.
Last edited by midnightpulp; 05-03-2015 at 09:31 PM.
Kareem was 40 at the time of those Finals.
But those Lakers teams in Kareem's prime weren't very good. So I don't blame him for those teams not winning it all.
But KG and Dirk could never guard the big 7 footers. KG reduced himself to playing PF cause he was too skinny to play the 5.And legit centers like Dave Cowens (6'9") who outplayed him in '71
Peak Shaq was far better than any of those centers. Jack Sikma
Kevin Garnett, a far better defender than any of them save Hakeem. Dirk? A matchup nightmare and better offensive player than any of them except for, again, Hakeem.
How does that make a lick of sense?
4th all time ain't nothing to sniff at. But yeah, I'm hunting bigger game now since Kirbs was like the worst starter in the NBA this year and will end his career in the lottery. Duncan vs. Kobe is done.
I'm after the ten point bucks now, and I think I hit it (Kareem) right through the heart. The "2nd Greatest Player of All Time" should win more than 2 Finals MVPS in 8 (or is it 9) Finals appearances. And he shouldn't be getting dominated by Dave Cowens
Duncan isn't that huge (compared to traditional centers), and was always KG's assignment.
And I was speaking about Dirk's offensive game, which would give Duncan fits when he guarded him. Meanwhile, Kareem is taking it easy against the likes of Jack Sikma and Robert Parish.
Game 7, at home, all on the line, you're the MVP and the best player in the world at your absolute peak.
And you get outplayed by Dave Cowens.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...405120MIL.html
"Kareem played against real centers."
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