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Here are my top ten (If I include Amare he would be #4)
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Jermaine O'neal
5. Rasheed Wallace
6. Dwight Howard
7. Chris Webber
8. Chris Bosh
9. Paul Gasol
10. Shareef Abdur-Rahim
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Rasheed Wallace
5. Elton Brand
6. Jermaine O'Neal
7. Dwight Howard
8. Chris Webber
9. Kenyon Martin
10. Antonio McDyess
Here are my top ten (If I include Amare he would be #4)
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Jermaine O'neal
5. Rasheed Wallace
6. Dwight Howard
7. Chris Webber
8. Chris Bosh
9. Paul Gasol
10. Shareef Abdur-Rahim
1.TIMMY
2.Kevin G
3.Nowitzki
4.Rashweed
5.Gasol
6.Kareem
7.Martin
8.Grant
9.Karl Malone
10.Webber
5.Gasol
6.Kareem
Rasheed Wallace might not be in my top-10 power forwards.. He's really the leagues most overrated player I.M.O.
Why do I feel this way?
- Career 15.8 Points Per Game is only slightly above average. Far from elite status.
- Career 6.9 Rebounds Per Game would make Daniel Santiago blush with embarassment.
- Career 1.3 Blocks Per Game show me that he's not an interior defensive force.
- He's proven to be a loser. Those late-90's|early-2000 Portland teams were the most talented in the league, yet they never had a special player to lead them anywhere.
- He couldn't lead Portland out of the lottery. Detroit was already a great team. He just hopped on the band wagon.
- He's a team cancer. It hasn't quite reached that point in Detroit yet, but it's getting there. How long untill he throws a towel in Flip Saunders face? Before the All-Star break?
- He leads the league in techs. Those free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss.
- His positives aren't all that positive to begin with, as he's not a great player in any aspect of the game. However when you combined all of his negatives, it really makes him an average power forward in my opinion. There;s a reason he hasn't made an All-Star team in 5 years while guys like Antione Walker and Wally Szczerbiak have.
Last edited by The Artest Factor; 09-09-2005 at 12:00 PM.
1. Rasheed's career 15.8 points per game: Hall of Famer Kevin McHale's career ppg is 17.9, basically one basket more than Rasheed's. Future Hall of Famer Scottie Pippen's career ppg is 16.1, and he was the only "OTHER" scorer on those Bull's teams. Allegedly "PROLIFIC" 3 pt "SHOOTING GUARD" Reggie Miller's career ppg is 18.2, not THAT much more than Rasheed's, and Reggie was the focus of the offense for many years. Rasheed is definitely not on the level of Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki or even Amare Stoudemire in terms of point production. He feels more comfortable with having a secondary role on a team. But, if you take into consideration his unselfishness and defensive talents, I think he is just below those top four power forwards.
By the way, Jermaine O'Neal's career points per game is 13.3, and Ron Artest's career points per game is 14.4.
2. Career 6.9 rebounds per game is not that good for a top tier power forward, you're right. He is not a GREAT rebounder for his height, size, and talent, but you can attribute that two a coupld of different things. First, he spends time shooting jumpshots so he is not a great offensive rebounder. Also, he has spent time on frontlines that have included Chris Webber, Dale Davis, Arvydas Sabonis, and Ben Wallace, all very good, or great rebounders. Kevin Garnett has never really had a frontcourt mate who has posted 7-8 rpg. Duncan had DRob, and you saw Robinson's minutes and rebounds per game drop noticeably when Duncan came to the Spurs. Rasheed also spent 1 1/2 seasons at the small forward position, which may also have had an effect on his rebounding numbers.
3. Career 1.3 blocks per game: That's a very good bpg average! Are you kidding me??? And, blocks per game is not a good baromter for being an "interior defensive force." There are very good post defenders that are not good shot-blockers. For example, Cliff Robinson was renown as being a great post defender, but he was never known as a great shot-blocker. Rasheed is one of the best post defenders in the game.
4. "He's a proven loser." That's a pretty shallow statement, obviously predicated on a biased hatred towards a player and/or his team, considering Rasheed's last two seasons. Actually, Rasheed's a proven winner after these two years.
5. "He couldn't lead Portland out of the lottery." What???
Portland Trailblazer's season records with Rasheed Wallace:
1996-97 ............. 49-33
1997-98 ..............46-36
1998-99 ..............35-15
1999-2000 ...........59-23
2000-01 ..............50-32
2001-02 ..............49-33
2002-03 ..............50-32
When exactly were the Blazers in the lottery with Rasheed Wallace on the team?
6. "He's a team cancer." That's funny coming from someone that uses the screen name "ARTEST FACTOR." But, if Rasheed being a cancer results in the Pistons going to the NBA Finals twice and winning a championship once in the TWO YEARS he's been aboard, I'll take it.
7. "free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss." So does that mean Shaquille O'Neal is not the best center in the league because his free throws can be the difference between a win and a loss? Bringing up technical fouls is silly. Kevin Garnett gets his fair share of technicals. Dirk Nowitzki and Amare Stoudemire had quite a few techs too. Just a poor argument and one just to try to pile on negatives on Rasheed, but ok.
8. All-star appearances: Perhaps guys like Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and Chris Webber had something to do with Rasheed not making an all star team in a while. Also, he doesn't have the biggest fanbase to begin with. And, now, on such a balanced team, his numbers really don't warrant it, but he's content with good numbers and a balanced team if it means the team is successful. And, Antoine Walker didn't make the all star team when he was in the Western Conference either.
Rasheed is not an "elite" power forward. He won't be in the hall of fame. But, after Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, and Amare Stoudemire, he's as good as any other power forward in the league. Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Webber, Elton Brand, Chris Bosh and Dwight Howard are also in the second tier of power forwards. And, Rasheed is as good as any of those players. When it comes down to it, don't just look at the numbers. Because numbers are nice, but they do no good if your team doesn't win games. Rasheed sacrifices some of his point production because he has two great scoring guards in Billups and Hamilton. Rasheed won't rebound or block as many shots because of Ben Wallace. But, it doesn't really matter to him. It's players like that, like Bruce Bowen, like Jeff Foster, like Udonis Haslem ... guys who are unselfish and sacrifice stats or do the dirty work that really deserve credit.
JO's career averages are so low because he spent his first few seasons riding the pine... behind Rasheed...
Do you honestly believe Rasheed would start over JO right now? Cause if he is just as good as you claim... he would. JO belongs in that tier with Duncan, KG, and Dirk... Rasheed is in the group below... when was the last time Rasheed scored over 50 points in a game?
there is 3 tiers
tim
kg
then
dirk
joneal
then
the rest
dont say dirk is on par with duncan and kg, and dont say kg is on par with duncan
kg has been in the league two more years that duncan, played with 5 different allstars and hasnt done
I can agree with that
I would probably rank Jermaine O'Neal ahead of Rasheed Wallace, but don't believe Jermaine is MUCH better than Rasheed.
Jermaine has had a couple (3) great years, Duncan and KG have been doing it for 7-8 years. Dirk has been very good for 5 years now. I wouldn't be completely opposed to placing Jermaine O'Neal in that group, but it's just my opinion that he isn't yet.
And, since when was "SCORING OVER 50 POINTS IN A GAME" equate to being an elite basketball player? Apparently, you think TONY DELK is one of the best point guards in the NBA.
danna barros is a hall of famer
Again, I'm not opposed to placing Jermaine O'Neal in a group with TD, KG, and Dirk. But, I just believe those three are in a class by themselves. I would put Jermaine O'Neal and Amare Stoudemire (even though he may end up playing center again this year) right after those three.
I'll say Kevin Garnett is on par with Tim Duncan, and you can argue with me as much as you want. I think those two are the best two power forwards in the league, and both will end up being top five power forwards in NBA history. They are both future hall of famers, guaranteed. Tim Duncan has had championship success, and KG hasn't, and that's the distinction. But, as individual players and in terms of skills and talent, KG is every bit as good as Tim Duncan, maybe even better in terms of athleticism and skills. Duncan is better because of his rings, because of his playoff success, because of his will to win. But the topic wasn't "best power forward winners" or "best team players at the power forward position" or "best power forward champions." It's a similar argument to Wilt v. Russell. There's no denying that Wilt Chamberlain in his time was the most dominating basketball force, but Bill Russell had all the championship rings. So who's better?
I put KG and TD together because talent and skill wise, they are.
In fact, Kevin Garnett is the only player to average 20 ppg, 10 rpg, 5 apg in SIX consecutive seasons. THE ONLY PLAYER in NBA history. THE ONLY PLAYER. ONLY.
Getting the rings and the trophy is a TEAM concept. We're talking about individual players.
both will end up being top five power forwards in NBA history
naturally
top 2 you mean
duncan is the only player EVER, in NBA HISTORY to be on the nba 1st team his FIRST 8 (EIGHT) years in the league...EVER
he was on the same 1st team as michael jordan, karl malone.
he also trails only one player ever in finals mvps
michael jordan
and the only players in NBA HISTORY to win multiple les, and multiple MVPS
are
wilt
kareem
bird
magic
jordan
duncan
is that good company?
Another idiot who thiks ppg means everything.
the only players in NBA HISTORY to win multiple les, and multiple MVPS
are
wilt
kareem
bird
magic
jordan
duncan
is that good company?
IS that good company?
i need to be reassured
Tony Delk didn't average 24+ points either... he was a fluke that night... good comeback though
And JO is alot younger than Duncan, KG, and Dirk... he has not yet reached his prime... whereas those players are currently in theirs... some people forget that JO only came out of his s three years ago... those other players have been doing it for years... and IMO JO is twice the player Rasheed is... for most of the year (and definately when he is not facing him... Sheed was JO's mentor in Portland... I think Sheed can psych him out some)... Sheed has also been healthier in the playoffs for the last two years. But I have a feeling that Jermaine will grow some as a player this year...
1.Timmy
2.Amare
3.KG
4.Dirk
5.Brand
6.Joneal
7.Sheed
8. Kenyon Martin
9.Chris Bosh
10. Robert Horry
Noticeably absent is Antoine Walker. Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard are centers in my book.
1:KG
2:tim
3:amare
4:dirk
5:j oneal
those are my top 5
I can see Dirk over JO... but I can't believe people have rated Brand and others (Rasheed) above him...
Brand is a monster stuck in a hole. I gave the edge to brand because of his defensive prowess. Guy averages more boards and more blocks than does Jermaine. Also doesn't rely on his jumper as much as Jermaine does. Plus, Jermaine has a bit of a bad at ude. Didn't he blame Sjax for a playoff loss against Detroit? Close but I like Brand.
I don't think Jermaine said that about Stephen... JO is notorius for taking the blame upon himself... even when it isn't his fault... JO has a bad at ude with no one except referee's... which is something Rick has claimed our entire teams needs to cut down on... Actually... the Pacers motto this year has something to do with not complaining about what you can't control. And Brand's defensive stats aren't as impressive over Jermaine's as his offensive one's are over Brand's.
Brand can block shots, but JO is the better post defender IMHO
Offense means very little to people in San Antonio, note Peja stojacovich. I remember Jermaine being suspended 15 games and also complaining about racism in the NBA. Plus, by all accounts he did blame Stephan Jackson for the game 4 or 5 loss against the pistons. Jermaine has serious game, but has a lot of room for improvement. I like Brand for some of the same reasons i like Tim over Garnett.
can you support that argument?
Uh.... ?
From when I've seen Brand play, I've thought his post defense wasn't as good as Jermaine's.
It is just an opinion, feel free to disagree with it.
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