Why is Duncan not considered the BEST "Big Man" of all time?

[Skull-1]

I've got him over Shaq and Hakeem pretty soundly. The Wilt/Russell/Kareem is where it gets tricky. All 3 of those guys had different strengths/blemishes to their resumes:

Russell - Championships that I doubt anyone else on the list would have matched if they had been in the same place. We can say "different era" all day long, but the theoretical situation there is so hard to say. He won so many Game 7s and won when it mattered so much, that he is the best when it comes to this. Duncan's argument over Russell can't be winning, it has to be statistics.

Wilt - But if Duncan's argument over Russell is stats, then you run into a problem and have to change your hermeneutic against Wilt, whose stats were off the charts. With Wilt, you have to attack his playoff performance and winning. Duncan has him there.

Kareem - So Duncan's argument to land over Russell and Wilt has to be either (a) the combination of winning and numbers or (b) longevity. And then you run into Kareem, who had both of those and more hardware than Duncan. So with Kareem, you have to change your hermeneutic again and go with the fact that Kareem played with two top-15 players (Magic & Oscar). Duncan never played with even one. So Duncan's argument over Kareem is that he did almost the same with much less.

In my opinion, Duncan's only argument to land over all 3 has to be the fact that he has no "blemishes" on his resume (besides never repeating...and all of these 3 guys do). Personally I have him at #4:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Lebron
11. Hakeem
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Dr J
15. Dirk

No DRob.

[Dre_7]

Duncan IS the best big man of all time!

[SASdynasty!]

No DRob.

I don't think many people put DRob in the Top-15. Top 25, for sure. Top 20, probably. Never winning a le as the best player on your team is what hurts DRob the most. One of the most skilled big men of all time though.

[Skull-1]

What? Guy was selected to several all-time great lists. Was on the Dream Team. Made San Antonio relevant all by himself for a decade with absolutely no support, unlike Jordan and Hakeem.

[lefty]

Hakeem ftw

[GoodOdor]

What? Guy was selected to several all-time great lists. Was on the Dream Team. Made San Antonio relevant all by himself for a decade with absolutely no support, unlike Jordan and Hakeem.

And shriveled every time it mattered in the playoffs.

Also got ed for everyone to see by Hakeem. He tore that ass up good.

[Sean Cagney]

Completely agree with all of that. I could definitely see Mikan in the top 15 if I knew more about him. And I agree on the Shaq/Kobe...actually I accidentally listed them wrong. I'll have Shaq over Kobe unless Kobe makes another run (edited my original post).

I actually have kind of a weird perspective because I could see Duncan having arguments over Jordan before I see him having arguments over Kareem for the GOAT. It's hard to explain but mostly has to do with the fact that we have Jordan with 5 losing seasons (one he was injured for a lot of) and a 1-9 playoff record before Pippen and that amazing supporting cast.

See I see the MJ argument on playoff record before Pippen but it was not until Pippen became a man that they got over Detroit, before that he was there but did not help out much in the playoffs. Mj needed some help and could not do it all on his own, most cant though. MJ always showed up and put up big numbers in the playoffs vs Detroit etc. but his team did not, that is not a slight on him. Pippen deserves more credit overall indeed but honestly Mike was always there and that extra help put him over the hump, period.

Bird after MJs 63 called him God in basketball shoes for a reason, he was that good.

[313]

Because of pop who rob from him les...

[Skull-1]

And shriveled every time it mattered in the playoffs.

Also got ed for everyone to see by Hakeem. He tore that ass up good.

Revisionist history.

[pgardn]

Just two quick points:

* Jabbar stopped rebounding when he turned 30, Duncan did not

* Jabbar's dominant years were all when the NBA was diluted by the ABA.

His D in later years was embarrassing as well.
All he could do was hip check.

[barbacoataco]

Trying to compare the very greatest players is pointless. You can make specific points, like Kareem was more consistent throughout his career than Olajuwon. Or you could say that Shaq was unstoppable as a scorer, but his FT problems were a liability late and close.
Anyway here's my list for big men
Peak
1. Olajuwon
2. Shaq
3. Kareem
4. Duncan
5. Russell

Career
1. Kareem
2. Duncan (very close 1 & 2)
3. Russell
4. Olajuwon
5. Shaq

Also in the mix Chamberlain and Moses Malone

[z0sa]

Cause Wilt.

[pgardn]

Trying to compare the very greatest players is pointless. You can make specific points, like Kareem was more consistent throughout his career than Olajuwon. Or you could say that Shaq was unstoppable as a scorer, but his FT problems were a liability late and close.
Anyway here's my list for big men
Peak
1. Olajuwon
2. Shaq
3. Kareem
4. Duncan
5. Russell

Career
1. Kareem
2. Duncan (very close 1 & 2)
3. Russell
4. Olajuwon
5. Shaq

Also in the mix Chamberlain and Moses Malone

i likes this list


I would add Moses would not play good D. For that reason he does not belong IMO. Russell is given too much credit for his work on Wilt. 8 teams in the league leading (in the beginning) to multiple championships and on his first Celtics team Bill was the only black man... crazy. Terribly difficult to rate Russell.

And heck yes it's difficult but entertaining.

[barbacoataco]

I think when comparing greats of different eras you have to evaluate them based on their career in relation to the time they played. You can speculate all day about how Russell would fare in today's league, bug nobody knows or ever could know. The fact is Wilt Chamberlain was huge and athletic even by today's standards, and Russell was able to handle him. So I don't buy that he couldn't play today.

[Skull-1]

None of them could hang with Prime David. I guess nobody here actually saw the guy play.

[phxspurfan]

TD over Wilt? lol the homerism

[SASdynasty!]

What? Guy was selected to several all-time great lists. Was on the Dream Team. Made San Antonio relevant all by himself for a decade with absolutely no support, unlike Jordan and Hakeem.

What's your top-15 list?

[barbacoataco]

TD over Wilt? lol the homerism

TD > Russell > Wilt. That's a pretty straight argument. It's not like Duncan doesn't have 5 rings and was an unstoppable force in his prime, while remaining productive at an advanced age. Being behind Duncan isn't homerism. If we were talking about Karl Malone it would be different. But Duncan's resume compares with any player.

[daslicer]

Jabbar is the only big I rank ahead of Duncan but Duncan is ahead of the rest.

[Skull-1]

What's your top-15 list?

Definitely includes Robinson. Not even up for debate.

[Sean Cagney]

None of them could hang with Prime David. I guess nobody here actually saw the guy play.

Hakeem could though. I think TD at his best would edge him too.. I saw him play in his prime too, very quick and athletic.

[barbacoataco]

If DRob would have had a better supporting cast, he might have won a championship in 1994-6 period which would help his argument. I love Robinson and had season tickets while he was playing. But there was something missing with him. Of maybe not. I always say if you give 1995 team Parker and Ginobili, and take away Del Negro and Avery, that team wins a championship.

When comparing the all time greats I think we are all unrealistic about how much team support comes in to play. I'm not sure if players like Ewing, DRob, Barkley and Stockton were just unlucky or truly of a lesser quality. What if a guy like Barkley would have had a little more talent around him? What if the Malone/Stockton teams could have added one more piece? Or what if Jordan never found Pippen? And players like Magic, Kareem and Bird were always surrounded by A LOT of talent.

I say all this in comparison to baseball hitting statistics, which are pretty much a Mano a Mano contest. A batter faces a pitcher. In basketball the team is working together and the outcome can hinge and fall by the actions of a seldom used bench player who gets hot and hits some 3's. And we use these outcomes to justify saying "Hakeem is better than Robinson because he schooled him in 95."

[Blackjack]

Hakeem got to play against David or Rodman. David got to play against the Houston Rockets.

David had his faults, but he destroyed one-on-one coverage. Unfortunately, his teams provided no real threat outside him.

[Galileo]

1962 NBA Finals, game 7:

Bill Russell;

30 points
40 rebounds
Celtics win

No one has ever peaked this high.

UPDATE:

Some sources credit Russell with 53 minutes, 30 points, 40 rebounds, 8+ blocks, 4 assists, 8/18 FG, 14/17 FT's.

[Galileo]

Bill Russell in game 7s:

10 games
10 wins
5 were NBA Finals
5 were East Finals

18.6 points per game
29.3 rebounds per game