NBA: this loss pretty much seals MJ >>>> Leroids forever

[dbreiden83080]

I love MJ but in reality there is not a single le he would have won minus Pippen.. People tend to rewrite history as if he dominated all the finals and won with ease. Jordan dominated statistically of course but almost all of those series were close with Pippen playing huge on defense especially.

[Killakobe81]

I don't think there is a single Pantheon-level player, outside of maybe the super-dominant big men like KAJ or Hakeem, that could have won either the '07 or '15 Finals with LeBron's supporting cast. MJ wouldn't have been able to do it, IMO.

Then again, I don't really care if people think LeBron is at MJ's level or not. Doesn't matter.

My honest take at his best he has some of what made both Magic and Mj special. He has Mj's ability to exert his will and Magic like vision. I think it's closer than Jordan fans will admit ...but tough to make a case if the loss column is larger than the win column (finals wise) regardless. To be fair two of those losses came and even his last ECF loss in CLE were to the 3 best PF's I have ever seen. Losing to Tim, Dirk, KG is no crime.

[Killakobe81]

I love MJ but in reality there is not a single le he would have won minus Pippen.. People tend to rewrite history as if he dominated all the finals and won with ease. Jordan dominated statistically of course but almost all of those series were close with Pippen playing huge on defense especially.

Great points ...

[baseline bum]

Lebron wasn't going to surpass MJ even if he bullied his way to a finals win. In fact, this finals showed how good Lebron is and how crappy the team he played for is, and should forever quash the rings argument as it perfectly illustrates that winning is purely a team accomplishment with contributions from individuals. The failure of management shouldn't fall on the shoulders of Lebron.

That said, I am not sure about >>>>, MJ is about >> Lebron.

Now if Lebron wins the next 6 championships averaging 40/12/12 in the playoffs, shooting 60% from the field, and put in 4 blks and 3 stls, he would be the GOAT, but that's not likely to happen.

Failure of management? They got James a good supporting cast, it's just his best three teammates all suffered season ending injuries.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Some pretty lazy analysis here.

Was Lebron really suppose to win the le in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

He won two NBA finals games on his own.

Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.

It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.

Nobody wins on his own. Delly iced 2 crucial FT's in Game 2 and a bank shot And 1 in Game 3 sealed it. He also played a huge role roughing the MVP in those games.


More than anything, Cleveland's hustle surprised everyone.

[Koolaid_Man]

I love MJ but in reality there is not a single le he would have won minus Pippen.. People tend to rewrite history as if he dominated all the finals and won with ease. Jordan dominated statistically of course but almost all of those series were close with Pippen playing huge on defense especially.

Lebron has Tristen grabbing rebounds and Mozdov blocking shots all series long....he had help..i dont want to hear excuses...

[baseline bum]

LeBron lost the ability to surpass Jordan when he got destroyed by Nowitzki and Chandler in the 2011 Finals with a prime Wade and prime Bosh. I don't know how this is even a topic.

[Koolaid_Man]

Nobody wins on his own. Delly iced 2 crucial FT's in Game 2 and a bank shot And 1 in Game 3 sealed it. He also played a huge role roughing the MVP in those games.


More than anything, Cleveland's hustle surprised everyone.

He had help....he refused to use them properly and chose instesd to Stat pad....I cant be happier he lost

[Koolaid_Man]

LeBron lost the ability to surpass Jordan when he got destroyed by Nowitzki and Chandler in the 2011 Finals with a prime Wade and prime Bosh. I don't know how this is even a topic.

Bingo....

[ambchang]

Failure of management? They got James a good supporting cast, it's just his best three teammates all suffered season ending injuries.

Love and Irving weren't really good supporting cast.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Love and Irving weren't really good supporting cast.

And this is based on nothing....

[baseline bum]

Love and Irving weren't really good supporting cast.

Really? Irving was a monster in Game 1 of the Finals.

[Koolaid_Man]

I'm just glad that nugga lost

[Koolaid_Man]

Really? Irving was a monster in Game 1 of the Finals.

Irving is a pussy...he was a monster and they still lost game 1 with Steph playing horrible?....GS is better offensively even if Cavs have Love and Kylie...you gotta sacrifice something if youre the Cavs....with Love and Kylie they lose all of their defense....so all it means is the Warriors win all these games by 4-5 instead of 8-15...

[Infinite_limit]

?

2011 closed the door on MJ
2015 might have closed door on Duncan

[ambchang]

And this is based on nothing....

Based on years and years of not making it to the playoffs, observation of their inability to play defense, stat padding, and generally not making much of a difference on any teams they ever played for in the NBA? Kyrie Irving had a net rating of +2 his entire career, he never had one single season of + in DBPM, his VORP is average.

Kevin Love is pretty much the same, only that he did it for longer.

[ambchang]

Really? Irving was a monster in Game 1 of the Finals.

1 game does not a career make, and despite that the Cavs still lost in OT, vs. winning in Games 2 and 3 without Irving and with a guy who can't dribble or shoot (I don't even know how Della even made an NBA roster).

[Infinite_limit]

Some pretty lazy analysis here.

Was Lebron really suppose to win the le in 07 and 15? You hold that against him?

He won two NBA finals games on his own.

Jordan was a better scorer but Lebron is a better all-around player. LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD, I, too, saw Jordan play his whole career and I never saw a player who was virtually everywhere the way James was in the finals this season.

It extends to regular season too. Jordan had way more 40 pt/5 ast games but Lebron can get 30/7/7 on a bad night.

Jordan was better Defender and possibly rebounder

Court vision is MAYBE the only basketball aspect James is superior at

EDIT: James is a better 3point shooter. So there u go

[StrengthAndHonor]

Based on years and years of not making it to the playoffs, observation of their inability to play defense, stat padding, and generally not making much of a difference on any teams they ever played for in the NBA? Kyrie Irving had a net rating of +2 his entire career, he never had one single season of + in DBPM, his VORP is average.

Kevin Love is pretty much the same, only that he did it for longer.

It nullifies everything you said, those observations were all made on assumptions and analyzed from them playing as their previous teams 1st option.

Now, back on topic as supporting casts?

[ambchang]

It nullifies everything you said, those observations were all made on assumptions and analyzed from them playing as their previous teams 1st option.

Now, back on topic as supporting casts?

Bad statistics extend to this year as well.
Cavs didn't miss a single beat after of they were injured in the playoffs.

Cavs

[jeebus]

It was never in doubt, even if Jordan killed his dad due to his insatiable appe e for gambling.

MJ could've started the Rwandan genocide and hired the turrrist to fly the plane into the WTC...still doesn't take away he's the GOAT and made Space Jam. Everything else is a non issue.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Bad statistics extend to this year as well.
Cavs didn't miss a single beat after of they were injured in the playoffs.

Cavs

They beat Eastern Conference teams who missed key players/were not 100%, Hawks with (Horford, Korver) Bulls (Gasol). Love wasn't necessarily needed to win those series.


I'm pretty sure your "Not missing a beat" comment was also proven false when the Cavs ran out of talent in the Finals.


Also, statistically Love and Irving showed great promises after the Cavs early season adjustment was flushed out as the season went along. So your theory of bad statistics extending (perhaps a small sample size) is also unfounded.

[Koolaid_Man]

They beat Eastern Conference teams who missed key players/were not 100%, Hawks with (Horford, Korver) Bulls (Gasol). Love wasn't necessarily needed to win those series.


I'm pretty sure your "Not missing a beat" comment was also proven false when the Cavs ran out of talent in the Finals.


Also, statistically Love and Irving showed great promises after the Cavs early season adjustment was flushed out as the season went along. So your theory of bad statistics extending (perhaps a small sample size) is also unfounded.

Dam..you're deep in his ass this morning....and no that doesnt make you gay..it makes him gay for taking it like that...

Carry on my friend

[ambchang]

They beat Eastern Conference teams who missed key players/were not 100%, Hawks with (Horford, Korver) Bulls (Gasol). Love wasn't necessarily needed to win those series.


I'm pretty sure your "Not missing a beat" comment was also proven false when the Cavs ran out of talent in the Finals.


Also, statistically Love and Irving showed great promises after the Cavs early season adjustment was flushed out as the season went along. So your theory of bad statistics extending (perhaps a small sample size) is also unfounded.

Show the statistics.

And Cavs lost with Irving at point in Game 1 in OT, won Games 2 and 3 without him, GSW adjusted, and won three straight. So no, the Cavs didn't miss a beat.

And I see your mountains of evidence supporting the two would make a difference as well. Great job.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Show the statistics.

And Cavs lost with Irving at point in Game 1 in OT, won Games 2 and 3 without him, GSW adjusted, and won three straight. So no, the Cavs didn't miss a beat.

And I see your mountains of evidence supporting the two would make a difference as well. Great job.

You're really going to argue here that the Cavs are better with Delladova than Irving?

This is honestly why I don't like debating with you.