Socialism takes another "L"

[pgardn]

The current government meeting with Putin for some perceived leverage was more than a slight miscalculation and just silly.


The best prescription may be Nono idea. But once the chips have settled, there has to be some sort of competent guidance or it won't be pretty at all.

[ElNono]

The current government meeting with Putin for some perceived leverage was more than a slight miscalculation and just silly.

The best prescription may be Nono idea. But once the chips have settled, there has to be some sort of competent guidance or it won't be pretty at all.

It's their country, let them do whatever they want. They will get through the inevitable crisis, and move on. At that point, lenders are going to come knocking asking to get paid but Greece is going to have much, much more leverage than they do now. Either that, or lenders are going to do what hedge funds did in the Argentina case and sue in New York for money that they can't embargo or collect.

This is why the IMF has been pushing hard for a international bankruptcy court to deal with sovereign debt. They don't have any actionable recourse if a country decides to default.

[pgardn]

It's their country, let them do whatever they want. They will get through the inevitable crisis, and move on. At that point, lenders are going to come knocking asking to get paid but Greece is going to have much, much more leverage than they do now. Either that, or lenders are going to do what hedge funds did in the Argentina case and sue in New York for money that they can't embargo or collect.

This is why the IMF has been pushing hard for a international bankruptcy court to deal with sovereign debt. They don't have any actionable recourse if a country decides to default.

I don't know what get through and moving on means.
Ending up like say, Bulgaria, is not getting through and moving on imo.

[ElNono]

I don't know what get through and moving on means.
Ending up like say, Bulgaria, is not getting through and moving on imo.

It means the sun will keep on rising and setting in Greece. And the proud Greek will continue in the never-ending quest to survive, like the vast majority of people around the world. With their own difficulties and challenges.

They were sold on being a member of the Union as the "better" option... but "better" is a subjective term. For the average Greek, it's been a nightmare that seemingly has no end.

Maybe they don't belong. Maybe they just wasted an unique opportunity. It's all water under the bridge now.

Retake control of the country and shape it in any way they want. If they want to shape it in the form of a turd, then that's their choice.

[pgardn]

It means the sun will keep on rising and setting in Greece. And the proud Greek will continue in the never-ending quest to survive, like the vast majority of people around the world. With their own difficulties and challenges.

They were sold on being a member of the Union as the "better" option... but "better" is a subjective term. For the average Greek, it's been a nightmare that seemingly has no end.

Maybe they don't belong. Maybe they just wasted an unique opportunity. It's all water under the bridge now.

Retake control of the country and shape it in any way they want. If they want to shape it in the form of a turd, then that's their choice.

History is not easily forgotten.
Greek culture gave the world a bit of a boost.
Gotta be humbling.

And being an average Bulgarian is not going to convince an average Greek that it cannot really go completely into the ter. But it's all relative I guess. If everyone around you is in a living you might not know any better. Just shut the history and don't travel to the rest of Western Europe.

[ElNono]

History is not easily forgotten.
Greek culture gave the world a bit of a boost.
Gotta be humbling.

And being an average Bulgarian is not going to convince an average Greek that it cannot really go completely into the ter. But it's all relative I guess. If everyone around you is in a living you might not know any better. Just shut the history and don't travel to the rest of Western Europe.

At the very least, it's the end of the excuses. If they gotta eat , well, it's not because big bad Europe told them to.

I've lived through some of this IMF policy bull , so I certainly can't claim to be completely unbiased. I just think that when you're living in democracy you vote for an idea on how to run the country and if it ends up sucking, you live with the consequences. But what kind of democracy is it if no matter who you vote has to be subservient to the policy decisions of some technocrats miles away from your country.

[velik_m]

Agreed. That said, in practice, the whole sovereign debt gone sour thing quickly turns into policy control, which is where I think the whole "mean creditors" thing comes from.

And frankly, the IMF has a terrible track record of helping countries get out of debt.

Has there ever been an IMF "success" story? I'm genuinely interested. It seems they at best they just prolong the inevitable and usually just make things worse in the long run. I mean i get that the general idea is ok - lend some money to help the country get its together in the meantime, but it never seems to play out that way.

[ElNono]

Has there ever been an IMF "success" story? I'm genuinely interested. It seems they at best they just prolong the inevitable and usually just make things worse in the long run. I mean i get that the general idea is ok - lend some money to help the country get its together in the meantime, but it never seems to play out that way.

I remember in the late 90's they touted Brazil and Argentina as their success stories. By the early 2000, both countries' economy went into the ter.

[ElNono]

This is a couple of years old now, but a good read on this topic nonetheless:
http://roarmag.org/2013/06/the-imfs-...e-nothing-new/

[boutons_deux]

A couple years ago, in the "disaster capitalism" strategy, 0.1%er Steve Forbes had meeting of capitalists to show what Greek state companies, Greek islands, were being sold to raise "one-time" cash. IMF, bankers like Goldman-SACKS create a crisis, then move in to buy stuff cheap.

[pgardn]

A couple years ago, in the "disaster capitalism" strategy, 0.1%er Steve Forbes had meeting of capitalists to show what Greek state companies, Greek islands, were being sold to raise "one-time" cash. IMF, bankers like Goldman-SACKS create a crisis, then move in to buy stuff cheap.

So the Greeks were helpless pawns the whole time.

Same old BS boots.

[boutons_deux]

So the Greeks were helpless pawns the whole time.

Same old BS boots.

what?

Steve Forbes Is In Athens Right Now For Conference On Carving Up Greek Assets
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-forbes-greek-power-summit-2011-6

[pgardn]

what?

Steve Forbes Is In Athens Right Now For Conference On Carving Up Greek Assets
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-forbes-greek-power-summit-2011-6

Uhhhh

What led to creditors trying to get their money back from Greece?
If you had bought Greek bonds would you want your money back?

Water under the bridge.

[boutons_deux]

Uhhhh

What led to creditors trying to get their money back from Greece?
If you had bought Greek bonds would you want your money back?

Water under the bridge.

not for the Greeks.

you analogy is just like predatory lenders selling unpayable loans to poor old people with their houses collateral (aka "capitalists creating a disaster to profit from"), then taking their houses in foreclosure.

[pgardn]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew...b_6185204.html

Read

This is not new.

[pgardn]

You continue to try and make your simplistic themes fit every situation.

[boutons_deux]

You continue to try and make your simplistic themes fit every situation.

[unleashbaynes]

Pretty sure it doesn't matter who the is running your country or what type of gov't you have in place as long as you have resources......

[pgardn]

Pretty sure it doesn't matter who the is running your country or what type of gov't you have in place as long as you have resources......

Japan would beg to differ.

[pgardn]

Just like these folks that can't get evolution thru their thick skulls.
They don't like the implications clashing with a sacred worldview.
You are the parallel line in this forum.

Again falling back on the emoticon says it all.

[boutons_deux]

Just like these folks that can't get evolution thru their thick skulls.
They don't like the implications clashing with a sacred worldview.
You are the parallel line in this forum.

Again falling back on the emoticon says it all.

you're butthurt as always

[Blizzardwizard]

Hey, Clipper Nation

If socialism is really losing and withering away, what's with all these anti-austerity marchers today in London?





I guess you and your Libertarians like austerity as it's an effective way of sapping money from public government run services as well as poor people.

[Clipper Nation]

Hey, Clipper Nation

If socialism is really losing and withering away, what's with all these anti-austerity marchers today in London?





I guess you and your Libertarians like austerity as it's an effective way of sapping money from public government run services as well as poor people.

Just goes to show how people in Europe have been conditioned to accept and feel en led to handouts as a way of life. Now that the welfare state is unaffordable, nobody knows how to deal with reality. Sad state of affairs, tbh.

[Blizzardwizard]

Now that the welfare state is unaffordable, nobody knows how to deal with reality. Sad state of affairs, tbh.

No, it really isn't. I'm guessing you'll somehow use Greece as an example of it failing, despite the fact that Greece was caught up in a world crisis caused by bankers and tax evasion. Homelessness was at an all time British low as well as food bank dependency and in general poorness when the welfare state was thriving under a socially democratic government from 97 to 2010 in Britain. Shame capitalists and bankers decided to crash the economy and blame it on the Labour government at the time, which has ultimately resulted in Conservatism and austerity..

[Clipper Nation]

No, it really isn't. I'm guessing you'll somehow use Greece as an example of it failing, despite the fact that Greece was caught up in a world crisis caused by bankers and tax evasion. Homelessness was at an all time British low as well as food bank dependency and in general poorness when the welfare state was thriving under a socially democratic government from 97 to 2010 in Britain. Shame capitalists and bankers decided to crash the economy and blame it on the Labour government at the time, which has ultimately resulted in Conservatism and austerity..

Sorry, but the welfare state is over capacity and never going back to where it was. You're going to have to work for a living now, tbh.