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  1. #26
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    You are describing the enslavement of joining the European Union

    Americans laugh at Germany/UK saying it's an unfair one-sided relationship [will have to bailout Greece etc]. On the contrary those in Brussels have freely accomplished the equivalent of invading & occupying their fellow Europeans. Furthermore Germany is about to make a killing on imports.
    The IMF has been doing this for years... but they gotta learn when they're pushing too far. Greece wouldn't be the first to give them the middle finger, and should they opt to take that road, they won't be the last.

  2. #27
    coffee is for closers Infinite_limit's Avatar
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    :Winehole quotes

    No one fears a Greek uprising, their people have become soft from being a tourist destination for so long. The Nazis in WW2 was truly 'The Empire Strikes Back'. It was just a matter of time before they'd be back, might as well financially dictate which direction they head towards. This is the main difference with the German comparison. Greece is lazy, Germany in WW1 was backstabbed [no foreigner troops on German soil]. Plus are we really gonna ignore rebuilding Germany wasn't to combat the Soviet Union?

  3. #28
    coffee is for closers Infinite_limit's Avatar
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    The IMF has been doing this for years... but they gotta learn when they're pushing too far. Greece wouldn't be the first to give them the middle finger, and should they opt to take that road, they won't be the last.
    As a Pole I'm actually relieved, we were supposed to switch to the Euro in 2012 [announced in 2008]. These economic issues mean it won't occur anytime soon, if ever. But the social problems, attempting to force European nations to accept refugees is creating tension with the whole Union. Hopefully I've returned by the time it all falls apart.

    The ability to currently work all across the Continent is an incentive for me to return
    Last edited by Infinite_limit; 07-03-2015 at 03:25 AM.

  4. #29
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    really? how did "many levels" of Greeks themselves participate with Goldman-Sacks to hide national debt to present Greece fraudulently as an acceptable candidate for Euro integration?

    That is a huge oversimplification of the root problem.
    How did the National debt ac ulate to begin with?


    You choose to enter the problem at a point where you can assign blame that fits your mantra.
    The Greeks have received money from a number of organizations who assumed they would get money back. It's not as simple as disguising the Greek problem and then hoping they fail so you can "take" the country.

  5. #30
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    "How did the National debt ac ulate to begin with?"

    ... by banks and funds lending Greece way too much.

    Greeks' and Greek companies' tax evasion has been a problem for many decades. I don't absolve Greece, but the "debt" came from capitalist creditors. Forcing Greece, or any non-industrial country, to sell national, semi-national assets to foreign creditors at fire sale prices is the game.

    Greece never should have joined the EU. Goldman-Sacks told Greece how to commit fraud on its debt level to be acceptable EU mucky mucks, who didn't do their homework, and many of whom are ex-G-S.


    Last edited by boutons_deux; 07-03-2015 at 03:31 PM.

  6. #31
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    Exclusive: Europeans tried to block IMF debt report on Greece:


    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...edName=topNews


  7. #32
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    "How did the National debt ac ulate to begin with?"

    ... by banks and funds lending Greece way too much.

    Greeks' and Greek companies' tax evasion has been a problem for many decades. I don't absolve Greece, but the "debt" came from capitalist creditors. Forcing Greece, or any non-industrial country, to sell national, semi-national assets to foreign creditors at fire sale prices is the game.

    Greece never should have joined the EU. Goldman-Sacks told Greece how to commit fraud on its debt level to be acceptable EU mucky mucks, who didn't do their homework, and many of whom are ex-G-S.


    So the Greeks threw a German contingent out trying to advise on the pension payouts and how to begin to gather tax revenue so they could sell their country off to Capitalists in 2011? One of many time government experts from other countries were told not to look to closely by the Greeks? By their politicians.

    I have no doubt multinational investment firms are looking for deals, that's what they do. But you are laying these players knowingly attempting to bankrupt Greece from way back when they were in trouble in the early 2000s and especially 2007 This did not happen over night, but the current Greek government would have you believe this. There were other countries that did not meet the perfect Euro standards either. The EU fudged on more than Greece.

    I think the EU has finally accepted this is a black hole money pit at this point. Find the story about the Greek port that lies fallow with Union leeches sitting at the docks collecting pay checks while a private port right next to the union run port was busy with traffic. The Unions and old pensioners played an important parasitic role as well.

  8. #33
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    the journalist/analysts are all over the place of yes vs no, consequences. the greek people seem to be totally confused yes vs no.

    thanks Goldman-Sacks for your fraud, and thanks capitalists trying to make a few $Bs off a poor country.

  9. #34
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    the journalist/analysts are all over the place of yes vs no, consequences. the greek people seem to be totally confused yes vs no.

    thanks Goldman-Sacks for your fraud, and thanks capitalists trying to make a few $Bs off a poor country.
    Thanks to the new government for lying to the people and now not only confusing them, but for the upcoming pain they will feel. If the Greels felt "poor" before, just wait. Poor is a relative term.

  10. #35
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Thanks to the new government for lying to the people and now not only confusing them, but for the upcoming pain they will feel. If the Greels felt "poor" before, just wait. Poor is a relative term.
    They'll feel the pain no matter what they do, tbh... the real question is what's better for them post-pain... and they should definitely make their own choice in that matter...

  11. #36
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Early Returns Show Greeks Strongly Reject E.U. Bailout

    The Interior Ministry projected that more than 60 percent of the voters had said no to a deal that would have imposed greater austerity measures on the beleaguered country.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/wo...isis-vote.html

  12. #37
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    Greek referendum: No vote on track for landslide victory - live updates


    http://www.theguardian.com/business/...o-bailout-live

  13. #38
    Believe. Blizzardwizard's Avatar
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    Good to see a no vote and a strong rejection of austerity. If only the British had the balls to reject it too..

  14. #39
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    Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

    Piketty: But not when it comes to repaying debts! Germany’s past, in this respect, should be of great significance to today’s Germans. Look at the history of national debt: Great Britain, Germany, and France were all once in the situation of today’s Greece, and in fact had been far more indebted. The first lesson that we can take from the history of government debt is that we are not facing a brand new problem. There have been many ways to repay debts, and not just one, which is what Berlin and Paris would have the Greeks believe.

    Piketty: My book recounts the history of income and wealth, including that of nations. What struck me while I was writing is that Germany is really the single best example of a country that, throughout its history, has never repaid its external debt. Neither after the First nor the Second World War. However, it has frequently made other nations pay up, such as after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, when it demanded massive reparations from France and indeed received them. The French state suffered for decades under this debt. The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.

    Piketty: When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: what a huge joke! Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.

    https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/t...d-7b5e7add6fff

  15. #40
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Seas currency or perhaps old Greek scholars drawn on rolled cabbage leaves...

    I have a feeling a dollar is gonna go a long way there, which is good if they can actually feed tourists.

  16. #41
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    They'll feel the pain no matter what they do, tbh... the real question is what's better for them post-pain... and they should definitely make their own choice in that matter...
    Some pain leads to death. I hope there is no rioting or regions trying to break free. They need to stick together and just keep the EU scapegoat mantra alive.

  17. #42
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Some pain leads to death. I hope there is no rioting or regions trying to break free. They need to stick together and just keep the EU scapegoat mantra alive.
    Every kind of pain kills. One way or the other, it always does, tbh. Austerity, with it's high unemployment and extreme poverty kills too.

    It was going to be painful no matter what, but at least they've now chosen to forge their own future, be it good or a tragedy, instead of technocrats in the IMF or Germany deciding for them.

  18. #43
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The Piketty interview boutons posted, taking a longer view of history, is relevant. Germany is in the position of having been the reckless lender and also historically of having been the reckless debtor. Taking it all out on Greece is bull and tends to ruin the putative political purpose of the EU: European peace and unity.

  19. #44
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The overriding message from lenders seems to be that the world is gonna end if Greece doesn't pay it's debts. But the reality is that at worst they'll have to forcibly learn to live by their own means. Is that such a terrible thing?

  20. #45
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Another twist:

    Yanis Varoufakis Abruptly Resigns as Greek Finance Minister

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/07/bu...-minister.html

    http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/

  21. #46
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    the usual goldbugs are spreading rumors about about Deutche Bank having its own Lehman moment, seeking as they have continuously since the 2008-9 global crash, to rip off gullible investors.

    the trend of stories in the financial press about Deutche Bank, however, does not inspire confidence:

    Here’s a re-cap of what’s happened at Deutsche Bank over the past 15 months:

    • In April of 2014, Deutsche Bank was forced to raise an additional 1.5 Billion of Tier 1 capital to support its capital structure. Why?
    • 1 month later in May of 2014, the scramble for liquidity continued as DB announced the selling of 8 billion euros worth of stock at up to a 30% discount. Why again? It was a move which raised eyebrows across the financial media. The calm outward image of Deutsche Bank did not seem to reflect their rushed efforts to raise liquidity. Something was decidedly rotten behind the curtain.
    • Fast forwarding to March of this year: Deutsche Bank fails the banking industry’s “stress tests” and is given a stern warning to shore up it’s capital structure.
    • In April, Deutsche Bank confirms its agreement to a joint settlement with the US and UK regarding the manipulation of LIBOR. The bank is saddled with a massive $2.1 billion payment to the DOJ. (Still, a small fraction of their winnings from the crime).
    • In May, one of Deutsche Bank’s CEOs, Anshu Jain is given an enormous amount of new authority by the board of directors. We guess that this is a “crisis move”. In times of crisis the power of the executive is often increased.
    • June 5: Greece misses its payment to the IMF. The risk of default across all of its debt is now considered acute. This has massive implications for Deutsche Bank.
    • June 6/7: (A Saturday/Sunday, and immediately following Greece’s missed payment to the IMF) Deutsche Bank’s two CEO’s announce their surprise departure from the company. (Just one month after Jain is given his new expanded powers). Anshu Jain will step down first at the end of June. Jürgen Fitschen will step down next May.
    • June 9: S&P lowers the rating of Deutsche Bank to BBB+ Just three notches above “junk”. (Incidentally, BBB+ is even lower than Lehman’s downgrade – which preceded its collapse by just 3 months)
    http://notquant.com/is-deutsche-bank-the-next-lehman/

    At the end of 2012, we wrote a couple of posts about how Deutsche Bank was charged by three separate whistleblowers with having greatly understated the risk of the biggest derivatives exposure in the entire bank, which meant it had artificially pumped up its capital level during the crisis. The second, longer post, Deutsche Bank’s $12 Billion in Hidden Losses: Why Whistleblower Charges Have Merit and Why They Matter was in response to a typical Matt Levine, “nothing to see here, move on” defense of financial services industry misconduct (Deutsche Bank Ignored Some “Losses” Until They Went Away). Deutsche settled the charges for $55 million, which says the agency concluded there was a real problem. However, the fine looks light given the seriousness of the misconduct.
    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/...w-simpson.html

    Some context for the 2014 capitalization:

    Deutsche Bank has finally admitted – to no-one’s surprise – that it needs more capital. It has announced plans to raise 8bn EUR of new Core Tier 1 equity capital (CET1).


    Although everyone knew Deutsche Bank was short of capital, this admission is nevertheless somewhat embarrassing. Only last year, Deutsche Bank raised 3bn EUR with a rights issue and claimed that no further capital would be needed. Yet recently it announced plans to raise up to 1.5bn EUR of “additional capital” – debt which can convert to equity if CET1 falls below an agreed level. Now it seems even more of the best quality capital is needed as well. What on earth has gone wrong?


    Deutsche Bank has long been something of a basket case. In 2007, when the first signs of the impending financial crisis began to appear, it was the most highly leveraged bank in Europe, with assets 68 times its Tier 1 capital. It narrowly managed to avoid sovereign bailout in the financial crisis, but it was a principal beneficiary of the US government’s bailout of AIG and it received liquidity support from the Fed and the ECB. But its problems weren’t limited to US subprime and toxic derivatives. The Icelandic journalist Sigrún Davíðsdóttir reports that Deutsche Bank had lent extensively to Icelandic banks and was left with the toxic loans when the Icelandic banks failed.


    Deutsche Bank also turned out to have sizeable interests in Ireland’s teetering banks. When the Irish property market collapsed, the Irish government – partly at the EU’s insistence – bailed out its banks to prevent a chain of contagion spreading out across the Eurozone and risking the solvency of the large European banks such as Deutsche Bank. The banking crisis caused a deep recession in Ireland, while the bailouts caused a fiscal crisis, eventually resulting in sovereign bailout. The price of this has been five years of painful retrenchment by both government and private sector in Ireland.


    But it didn’t end there. Deutsche Bank was also heavily exposed to periphery sovereign debt and associated credit derivatives. The exposure of German banks to Greek debt and credit default swaps was the principal reason for German nervousness about the private sector accepting losses: it was two years before the inevitable partial Greek default finally happened – by which time, of course, Deutsche Bank had largely unwound its exposures. It escaped serious damage in the PSI, unlike Greek pensioners whose funds were virtually wiped out. The ECB’s Securities Markets Program helped Deutsche Bank and others unload their toxic Greek debt (and other dodgy sovereign debt) at better than market rates. Guess who holds it now? Yes, the ECB does – and the ECB is of course backed by taxpayers. Yet another disguised bailout for Deutsche Bank.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/francesc...-its-problems/

    hiding risk?

    Every billion euros Deutsche Bank kept off its balance sheet inflated measures of its financial health, including capital ratios, which otherwise might have compelled it to raise more money from investors, according to Thomas Selling, an emeritus accounting professor at the Thunderbird School of Global Management in Glendale, Arizona, and a former academic fellow at the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.


    “Investors are relying on the financial statements for an unbiased view of the risk of the bank, and that view has been skewed,” said Selling, one of three accountants who examined deal do ents at the request of Bloomberg News. “It makes their balance sheet look less risky than it really is.”
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...taly-hide-risk
    Last edited by Winehole23; 07-06-2015 at 10:16 AM.

  22. #47
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    it's hardly unthinkable the troika is carrying water for a thinly capitalized, badly managed megabank that misstates both its exposure to risk and its own net worth.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 07-06-2015 at 11:44 AM.

  23. #48
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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  24. #49
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    despite the responses of media outlets and many pundits that the Eurocrats will have to beeat a retreat and offer Greece concessions, it’s not clear that this event strengthens the Greek government’s hand with its counterparties. Remember, Tsipras enjoyed popularity ratings of as high as 80% and has always retained majority support in polls. And it’s all too easy to forget that “the creditors” are not Merkel, Hollande, Lagarde and Draghi. The biggest group of “creditors” are taxpayers of the 18 other countries of the Eurozone. The ugly design of the Eurozone means that the sort of relief that Greece wants most, a reduction in the face amount of its debt (as opposed to the sort of reduction they’ve gotten, which is in economic value, via reductions in interest rates and extensions of maturities) puts the interest of those voters directly at odds with those in Greece. Our understanding is that a reduction in principal amount, under the perverse budgetary and accounting rules of the Eurozone, would result in those losses showing up as losses for budget purposes, now. They would need to be funded by increased taxes. Thus a reduction in austerity for Greece, via a debt writeoff, simply transfers austerity from Greece to other countries. It’s not hard to see why they won’t go for that. And Eurozone rules require unanimous decisions.
    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/...k-economy.html

  25. #50
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Creditors take losses? Piffle.

    Kenneth Rogoff, a Harvard professor, said although the Irish economy was recovering, the country would be "far better off" today if the Government had not taken over so much banking debt.
    The influential economist said Ireland should be among a number of countries "that should receive a significant debt write-down".



    "Of course, right now the Irish economy is recovering and it might not be the best time to confuse markets, especially with Greece on the brink," he told the Press Association.

    "But eventually the issue should be brought back to the table."



    Mr Rogoff believes massive debt saddled on vulnerable economies in Europe is a major impediment to their growth.



    Northern Europeans were being "penny wise and pound-foolish" not to agree to broad write-downs for these countries, he says.



    "I believe that Ireland would have been far better off today if the Government had not taken over so much of the bank debt, and instead allowed bank creditors to absorb a significant loss," he said.

    "As I understand it, considerable pressure was brought to bear on Ireland to protect the rest of the eurozone against contagion.



    "Perhaps, but then the costs of the bailout should have been shared as well.

    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...-31352691.html

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