NBA: The NBA "Franchise Four'' -- Why Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal Make the Team

[baseline bum]

The article was about players, so no way I'm taking West over Shaq there when West had to wait out Russell's career to win anything.

[Kidd K]

Ginobili over the Iceman and Parker tbh.

Over Parker. . .arguably yes. Over Gervin? No.

Duncan
Robinson
Bit of a dropoff
Gervin
Big dropoff
Parker/Manu.

tbh.
No Duncan = Manu/Parker never accomplish anything.

[Killakobe81]

The article was about players, so no way I'm taking West over Shaq there when West had to wait out Russell's career to win anything.

I get that but if you stuck to "franchise 4" for the spurs =

1. Timmy
2. Pop
3. David
4. Gervin

Pop is arguably the greatest Spur after Duncan can anyone argue otherwise? And after Russell and Bird it's Red for the Celts right above Pierce and Havlichek. for some teams Coaches/GM are bigger than some of the franchise stars. Same with Phil in Chicago after MJ and MAYBE Scottie Phil is the biggest/greatest Bull.

[TDMVPDPOY]

all the guys that have played for the spurs...i put them ahead of enrique

[ambchang]

Team	His List	My List	Reason
Boston	Russell Bird Havlicek Cousy	Russell Bird Havlicek Cousy	A little struggle between Cousy and Cowens, but ultimately went with Cousy as he was really the first superstar PG in the league.
Chicago	Jordan Pippen Rose Rodman	Jordan Pippen Walker Love	Rose just hasn’t really accomplish much in his career.* Sure there was the MVP, but the rest of his career is pretty ho-hum Rodman, if anything, is a Piston.* Grant was the better fit next to Jordan and Pippen anyways, and no one will have Grant on the Bulls teams Walker and Love kept the Bulls going before they hit it big in the 80s with Jordan.
Detroit	Thomas Bing Lanier Dumars	Thomas Dumars Lanier Bing	I had Dumars higher.* Loved Lanier for his love of the game, and I know a lot on here will be impressed by his big feet. Bing is too much of a scorer’s image, even though he was a great passer.* You can argue him being one of the prototype big point guards after Maurice Stokes.
GSW	Wilt Barry Thurmond Curry	Wilt Barry Mullin Thurmond	Curry is way too young for this, and don’t use his MVP championships winning season as a reason.* Winning an MVP and then having a sixth man win the FMVP in the same year is an embarrassment. Mullin did more to the Warriors than Curry did, and he never had the type of team Curry did.
Houston	Hakeem Moses Murphy Hayes	Hakeem Moses Hayes Murphy	Hayes was ballhog extraordinaire, but Murphy just wasn’t as good a player.
Lakers	Kareem Magic Kobe Shaq	Magic West Kobe Kareem	See reasoning above
Miami	Lebron Wade Mourning Hardaway	Lebron Wade Mourning Rice	Hardaway’s time with Miami wasn’t that impressive, his best was with the Warriors. And Rice carried that heat team for a bigger part of the franchise’s beginning years along with Seikaly.
NYK	Reed Frazier Ewing King	Ewing Reed King Frazier	Frazier gets underrated everywhere, and I am doing it again here, moving him from 2 to 4.* Great floor leader, scores well, phenomenal defensively, rebounds, passes, comes up big in the clutch, but I just can’t put him over Ewing.* Maybe King.
Philly	Wilt Moses Greer Erving	Wilt Moses Barkley Dr. J	Not having Barkley on this list is re ed.* Barkley’s prime was the final few years with the 6ers, and one or two years after joining the Suns.* His play with the 6er was crazy, he just had a terrible team next to him. Dr. J just lost a lot of his prime with the Nets in the ABA, and Greer just played too much dinoball,.
Suns	Nash Barkley Davis Stoudemire	Barkley Nash Kevin Johnson Davis	Having Stoudemire on any all-time teams just shows you how crap of a franchise you have.* Stoudemire?* Are you serious?* I’d put Hornacek and Dan Majerle above him. Kevin Johnson was phenomenal when he was healthy.* Too bad he didn’t listen to Eddie Johnson and started stretching before games. Kidd vs. Davis was a tough one.* Even though Kidd’s prime was a Sun/Net, his best work was still with the Nets, and he won the ring with the Mavs
San Antonio	Duncan Robinson Gervin Parker	Duncan Robinson Gervin Ginobili	Ginobili just does more for the Spurs than Parker. I’d also have Silas over Parker. Moore, Gilmore, Elliott and Bowen were all great Spurs as well.
Washington	Unseld Monroe Hayes Gus Johnson	Unseld Monroe Hayes Gus Johnson	Same reasons.* Chris Webber could have been that guy alongside Juwan Howard, it was just too bad. Also, as much as people likes to crap on Pervis Ellison, he was actually solid for a few injury free years there. And who can forget Gheorge Muresan!

[Spurtacular]

Over Parker. . .arguably yes. Over Gervin? No.

Duncan
Robinson
Bit of a dropoff
Gervin
Big dropoff
Parker/Manu.

tbh.
No Duncan = Manu/Parker never accomplish anything.

Manu does so many things to win championships. Yes, Gervin scored, but that didn't translate to championships. If there's a "big dropoff" between the two, Gervin is down below.

[Spurtacular]

Kobe would have wiped the floor with this unatheletic, slow dude by comparison....hahahahahahaha....love Jerry though...but he couldnt do .25th of what Kobe could do....there goes that number 25 again

Jerry West was a machine unto himself. The only reason he's not in the convo for GOAT is b/c the Celtics were a collectively more advanced machine. West is a more offensively skilled player than Kobe.

[Kidd K]

Manu does so many things to win championships. Yes, Gervin scored, but that didn't translate to championships. If there's a "big dropoff" between the two, Gervin is down below.

I don't agree. Manu helped us win les, yes. But so haven't role players too. It isn't like Manu is/was an annual all star player and helped us win les. He was just a very good player who occasionally hit all star status some years (I don't just mean making the team, I mean being that caliber) and won les with the team.

Gervin was great pretty much every year. He didn't win les because our team wasn't very good and he didn't have Duncan or Robinson with him. Let's not credit Manu for being the anchor or centerpiece of the team to our les because he certainly was not. That man is obviously Tim Duncan.

[Spurtacular]

I don't agree. Manu helped us win les, yes. But so haven't role players too. It isn't like Manu is/was an annual all star player and helped us win les. He was just a very good player who occasionally hit all star status some years (I don't just mean making the team, I mean being that caliber) and won les with the team.

Gervin was great pretty much every year. He didn't win les because our team wasn't very good and he didn't have Duncan or Robinson with him. Let's not credit Manu for being the anchor or centerpiece of the team to our les because he certainly was not. That man is obviously Tim Duncan.

George Gervin was a one trick pony. He didn't rebound; he didn't get assists; he didn't play particularly great defense.

And Manu was arguably the co-anchor / centerpiece in 05. He was the real fmvp that year as far as I'm concerned.

And as far as I'm concerned, Manu was an annual all-star level player for all of his prime years (and he always played like one come playoff time). We know that the league wants their big market, big personality 18 and 8 guys. I've seen plenty of less impactful players get all-star nods that Ginobili was more deserving of.

Now, I don't really mind the argument that Gervin was better though if that's your opinion. I at least see a case for it. But I completely shoot down the idea that it's a "big drop off" when Gervin was a one trick pony. Granted, he was a a a a one trick pony though.

[Thread]

I don't agree. Manu helped us win les, yes. But so haven't role players too. It isn't like Manu is/was an annual all star player and helped us win les. He was just a very good player who occasionally hit all star status some years (I don't just mean making the team, I mean being that caliber) and won les with the team.

Gervin was great pretty much every year. He didn't win les because our team wasn't very good and he didn't have Duncan or Robinson with him. Let's not credit Manu for being the anchor or centerpiece of the team to our les because he certainly was not. That man is obviously Tim Duncan.

But without Manu you'd be light 3, a firm 3. They don't grow on trees, Kid. You coulda won your 2nd 5th switchin' out me & The Pile. Manu is a winner,,,and they don't grow there as well. Me? I'm a winner. I'm just in a loser's circle. My tree took sick & and my limb fell off.

[Kidd K]

But without Manu you'd be light 3, a firm 3. They don't grow on trees, Kid. You coulda won your 2nd 5th switchin' out me & The Pile. Manu is a winner,,,and they don't grow there as well. Me? I'm a winner. I'm just in a loser's circle. My tree took sick & and my limb fell off.

You need to stop looking at it like a child though. Its not Spurs - Manu. It's Spurs - Manu + competent replacement. Manu's injury issues have cost the Spurs their chances at les during multiple years they didn't win too. Spurs may have not won 2 of their mid 2000s les without him, but they may have won on other years instead; the years he was injured and not performing, or injured and costing us a high seed and/or being rusty in the postseason.

[Kidd K]

George Gervin was a one trick pony. He didn't rebound; he didn't get assists; he didn't play particularly great defense.

And Manu was arguably the co-anchor / centerpiece in 05. He was the real fmvp that year as far as I'm concerned.

And as far as I'm concerned, Manu was an annual all-star level player for all of his prime years (and he always played like one come playoff time). We know that the league wants their big market, big personality 18 and 8 guys. I've seen plenty of less impactful players get all-star nods that Ginobili was more deserving of.

Now, I don't really mind the argument that Gervin was better though if that's your opinion. I at least see a case for it. But I completely shoot down the idea that it's a "big drop off" when Gervin was a one trick pony. Granted, he was a a a a one trick pony though.

Gervin didn't rebound? Other than his rookie year and when he was old as , all of his seasons = more rebounds than Manu's best season. So. . .that's bull that he didn't rebound. 1.5 more RPG than Manu. Only 1.4 less APG than Manu as well.

Gervin also rarely missed a game and didn't come off the bench to play against 2nd stringers for more than half his career like Manu did. He also average playing more minutes than Manu played during his highest MPG season. Put Gervin next to DRob or Duncan and he probably plays even better. Especially with Duncan.