Where Would You Rate Manu Ginobili?

[spurs=bling]

Sure Manu accomplished without Duncan.

Remember the Olympics, idiot?

[spurs=bling]

manu sucks, what a waste of money!

and you call yourself a spurs fan????


Spuritista

[Mark in Austin]

List in order of who I would want as the starting shooting guard in a post-oriented team: (like, oh... the Spurs, for instance)

1. Dwyane Wade - A complete package. Clutch, doesn't force things, low maintenance. Mature. Old School in the best sense of the phrase.
2. Tracy McGrady - Can still get better, especially defensively. But is already a monster. Discipline would make him a champion.
3. Manu Ginobili - Fearless, not a prima donna. Never gives up. Clutch at both ends of the court - can make game-changing plays without the ball in his hands. Incredibly efficient offensively.
4. Ray Allen - Sweetest stroke in the league, coming off a career year. Would be ranked higher if he hadn't let Bowen turn him into a 13 year old girl.
5. Kobe Bryant - On pure talent, would be at the top of this list, but has proven he doen't really like post-oriented offenses. Needs the ball in his hands too much. A threat to detonate at any anytime on the court, but hasn't mastered the art of WHEN to do so. He should have read the homework assignments phillup prepared for him all those years.
6. Joe Johnson - Ray Allen light. But with more balls, and a little less talent.
7. Rip Hamilton - Best mid-range game in the league. Automatic inside the arc.
8. Michael Redd - Talented, but I still question his mental toughness.
9. Ben Gordon - Might be better suited for a sixth man role. Clutch.
10. Larry Hughes - Next season will show if he's the next Pippen
11. Paul Pierce - Needs the ball in his hands too much. Allows himself to get too frustrated.
12. Stephen Jackson - No fear. Arguably no brains, too.
13. Corey Maggette - Playing for a loser can sure hide talent.
14. Ricky Davis - Has he turned a corner as elder statesman in Boston?
15. Vince Carter - Huge talent. Not mentally strong enough to consistently bring it every night. Loses 5 spots for quitting on his team.
16. Cuttino Mobley - Turns out the Mobley-Francis duo was more than just the sum of its parts.
17. Jason Richardson - the next Jerry Stackhouse.
18. Marquis Daniels - Jury's out. But I'd still take him over:
19. Quentin Richardson - Choke artist
20. Jalen Rose - the next Ron Mercer
21. Bonzi Wells - the next Kermit Washington
22. Jerry Stackhouse - who?
23. Jamal Crawford - my utter disdain for Isiah Thomas might have affected my judgement on his ranking.

[spurs=bling]

List in order of who I would want as the starting shooting guard in a post-oriented team:

1. Dwyane Wade - A complete package. Clutch, doesn't force things, low maintenance. Mature. Old School in the best sense of the phrase.
2. Tracy McGrady - Can still get better, especially defensively. But is already a monster. Discipline would make him a champion.
3. Manu Ginobili - Fearless, not a prima donna. Never gives up. Clutch at both ends of the court - can make game-changing plays without the ball in his hands. Incredibly efficient offensively.
4. Ray Allen - Sweetest stroke in the league, coming off a career year. Would be ranked higher if he hadn't let Bowen turn him into a 13 year old girl.
5. Kobe Bryant - On pure talent, would be at the top of this list, but has proven he doen't really like post-oriented offenses. Needs the ball in his hands too much. A threat to detonate at any anytime on the court, but hasn't mastered the art of WHEN to do so. He should have read the homework assignments phillup prepared for him all those years.
6. Joe Johnson - Ray Allen light. But with more balls, and a little less talent.
7. Rip Hamilton - Best mid-range game in the league. Automatic inside the arc.
8. Michael Redd - Talented, but I still question his mental toughness.
9. Ben Gordon - Might be better suited for a sixth man role. Clutch.
10. Larry Hughes - Next season will show if he's the next Pippen
11. Paul Pierce - Needs the ball in his hands too much. Allows himself to get too frustrated.
12. Stephen Jackson - No fear. Arguably no brains, too.
13. Corey Maggette - Playing for a loser can sure hide talent.
14. Ricky Davis - Has he turned a corner as elder statesman in Boston?
15. Vince Carter - Huge talent. Not mentally strong enough to consistently bring it every night. Loses 5 spots for quitting on his team.
16. Cuttino Mobley - Turns out the Mobley-Francis duo was more than just the sum of its parts.
17. Jason Richardson - the next Jerry Stackhouse.
18. Marquis Daniels - Jury's out. But I'd still take him over:
19. Quentin Richardson - Choke artist
20. Jalen Rose - the next Ron Mercer
21. Bonzi Wells - the next Kermit Washington
22. Jerry Stackhouse - who?
23. Jamal Crawford - my utter disdain for Isiah Thomas might have affected my judgement on his ranking.

you see i said manu in the top 3

[Mark in Austin]

Note I qualified my rankings as "my starting shooting guard on a post-oriented team."

NOT who is the most talented.

[picnroll]

Nice listing and reasoning.

12. Stephen Jackson - No fear. Arguably no brains, too.

Doesn't this apply to every Pacer starter minus Foster?

[Kori Ellis]

Note I qualified my rankings as "my starting shooting guard on a post-oriented team."

NOT who is the most talented.

Yeah. That makes a world of difference. There's a big difference between just "most talented" and when you add in intangibles and role on their team, etc.

I thought this thread was about just talent.

[timvp]

I agree with MIA, although I'd probably switch TMac and Kobe. Kobe, for all his ballhogging and whining, is one very, very talented player. TMac I don't think has the heart to be a playoff warrior.

[picnroll]

Yeah. That makes a world of difference. There's a big difference between just "most talented" and when you add in intangibles and role on their team, etc.

I thought this thread was about just talent.

Question then. If you put Manu in a different system, I'll pick SG for the Suns, how would his stats and therefore his ranking change? I think to some extent Manu has accomodated his skills and compromised his game to suit the Spurs' system and needs. People who simply look at stats like the simpleton The Artest Factor would see greater stats on a Manu on the Suns and think "Gee he must be a good player afterall".

[Mark in Austin]

Well, I guess some people are of the opinion that talent trumps everything. But just to make it in the league you have to be talented. Plus, there are players with more talent that never made it. Ratings like this are by nature subjective - but I don't think they tell you anything without some sort of context. Winning at the highest level is more than raw talent and stats, as Portland (as a team) and Dominique Wilkins (as an individual) proved not so long ago. If I'm a GM with a post-oriented team and I'm ranking the SG's, I'm doing it from a standpoint of who can most help me win a championship.

[Ginofan]

Behind Kobe, DWade, Tmac, and Ray Allen.

[samikeyp]

Where would you all rate Manu Ginobili overall and amongst shooting guards?

Higher than you would.


#3.

[Mark in Austin]

I agree with MIA, although I'd probably switch TMac and Kobe. Kobe, for all his ballhogging and whining, is one very, very talented player. TMac I don't think has the heart to be a playoff warrior.

You know, that might turn out to be true. But if I'm making this list for next season, I think Kobe has lost a little lustre. If McGrady develops that missing defensive intensity, he could be a Pippen-caliber defensive force. Coupled with his offensive game, I think he would be the dominant force in the league.

I'm actually hoping Jackson can figure out how to get the best out of Kobe, because while I agree that McGrady has yet to prove he has the heart of a playoff warrior, Kobe in in danger of becoming the Barry Bonds of basketball: Supremely talented, but a complete asshole who alienates teammates and fans; and who therefore will never be the emotional leader of a team. Jackson I think was able to steer Jordan away from that path; but Jordan was headed down it for the same reason he eventually bought into Jackson's system: because he hated to lose more than anything else in life, and he realized that Jackson's way would win more games. Kobe might simply be too selfish/immature to be able to accept that.

I think they both have a lot to prove next season.

[manubili]

But you have to know Manu is nothing without Duncan. Duncan is what makes the Spurs go-round. You could replace Manu with any top-10 shooting guard in the leaguer and the Spurs would be just as good, and better in many situations.

Put those guys in the same team as Tim Duncan, and you'll see their stats going down really hard. I say Top 5. Get a clue about team play, and then talk about Manu.

Winners win.

[LilMissSPURfect]

somewhere Between AWESOME and IN'!!!!!!

[Leetonidas]

Look at Manu's stats. Those aren't top-3 stats. To be honest, those aren't even top-10 stats. He's just not what you all make him out to be.

Congratulations, that was the stupidest post I've ever seen. Here's your prize:



Anyway...

I would rate Manu #3 behind Tracy McGrady and Dwayne Wade.

[Man In Black]

Manu Ginobili
Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Ricky Davis
Ben Gordon
Larry Hughes
Jerry Stackhouse
Marquis Daniels
Rip Hamilton
Jason Richardson
Tracy McGrady
Stephen Jackson
Cuttino Mobley
Corey Maggette
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Michael Redd
Vince Carter
Jamal Crawford
Quentin Richardson
Bonzi Wells
Ray Allen
Jalen Rose

The bolded guys are the only guys we can see possibly playing for a le the next few seasons, and out of those guys Ginobili raises his game as much as everyone listed except, he doesn't care about personal stats. HE ONLY CARES ABOUT W's and that's what makes him the best out there.

[Leetonidas]

By the way Artest Factor, don't take the picture all seriously and get your panties in a bunch. I was joking. I just think basing everything off stats is ridiculous.

[The Artest Factor]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong......

[Sense]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong......

2 things actually.


2 players have rings in that list.
Obviously the numbers don't matter.

[Alain]

And what about meaningfull stats such as:

- efficiency/mn
- pts/shot
- adj. shooting %
- +/- while on/off court ??

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong......

Out of that list, how many have:

- Olympic Gold medal
- 2 NBA Rings
- World Championship silver medal
- Euroleague le and MVP
- NBA All-Star Game

...and the list could go on and on, but I guess you like better a ringless T-Mac, Vince, Pierce, J-Rich and other ballhogs. After all, basketball is about dunks and beating beer throwing fans, not about winning.

[spurs=bling]

Out of that list, how many have:

- Olympic Gold medal
- 2 NBA Rings
- World Championship silver medal
- Euroleague le and MVP
- NBA All-Star Game

...and the list could go on and on, but I guess you like better a ringless T-Mac, Vince, Pierce, J-Rich and other ballhogs. After all, basketball is about dunks and beating beer throwing fans, not about winning.

[Ginofan]

04-05 MPG
TMac - 40.8
Kobe - 40.7
R.Allen - 39.3
DWade - 38.6
Redd - 38.0
JRich - 37.8
C. Maggette - 36.9
VC - 36.7
P.Pierce - 36.1
Ginobili - 29.6

04-05 FG%
DWade - 47.3
Ginobili - 47.1
P.Pierce - 45.5
VC - 45.2
JRich - 44.6
Redd - 44.1
Kobe - 43.3
TMac - 43.1
C. Maggette - 43.1
R.Allen - 42.8

04-05 3P%
VC - 40.6
Ginobili - 37.6
R.Allen - 37.6
P.Pierce - 37.0
Redd - 35.5
Kobe - 33.9
JRich - 33.8
TMac - 32.6
C. Maggette - 30.4
DWade - 28.9

[zeleni]

04-05 MPG
TMac - 40.8
Kobe - 40.7
R.Allen - 39.3
DWade - 38.6
Redd - 38.0
JRich - 37.8
C. Maggette - 36.9
VC - 36.7
P.Pierce - 36.1
Ginobili - 29.6

04-05 FG%
DWade - 47.3
Ginobili - 47.1
P.Pierce - 45.5
VC - 45.2
JRich - 44.6
Redd - 44.1
Kobe - 43.3
TMac - 43.1
C. Maggette - 43.1
R.Allen - 42.8

04-05 3P%
VC - 40.6
Ginobili - 37.6
R.Allen - 37.6
P.Pierce - 37.0
Redd - 35.5
Kobe - 33.9
JRich - 33.8
TMac - 32.6
C. Maggette - 30.4
DWade - 28.9

Now this is sick!