OT: Old vs. New

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't agree that music artists are worse nowadays, but I agree that the mastering of music is worse, though..it's one of the only aspects of entertainment where I've seen both the young and old agreeing on a subject

Music played on vinyl sounds better than anything that has been produced in later years..also, today's music is mastered more for personal use, such as the iTunes and the Iphone-style earbuds, rather than for records/stereo systems/cars, etc, which sounds a lot worse..

I'm not much of a gamer, so can't comment on the subject..

TV shows are levels better today, but the 90s was definitely better for movies, overall..

[baseline bum]

My gripe is game design. Compare even GTA3 to GTA5. In the former, there was no convenient waypoint system, quick travel taxi cabs, and the like. There was still a map, but you had to spend time in the city and learn it.

You're mad that GTA V has a gps now? Or that you don't spend forever just driving between missions when you die? That was one of the things I hated about GTA IV (though I hated a lot of things about that piece of ).

And if you've played the old school shooters like System Shock and Quake, you know FPS level design basically caters to children.

I'm more a Half Life guy when it comes to old school fps. I have no idea what you mean by fps level design catering to children.

My modern gaming cutoff was probably too far back. Things didn't start to get really dumbed down until about '06-07. The PS2, Gamecube and Xbox still had "hardcore" games like the Devil May Cry series, Godhand (a real asskicker that had me breaking a controller ), FZERO, Ninja Gaiden, Panzer Dragoon Orta, etc.

Dragon Age Inquisition is a very hard game in dragon battles if you haven't spent the time building your characters up and learning how to use all of them together. I remember one of the battles took me more than an hour and that game doesn't allow you to stockpile potions like say Skyrim.

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, but if I'm going to "waste" a couple hours in an exploration and leveling game I'd much rather do it crafting, trading, or gearing up than randomly roaming around.

I'm with you on the casual aspect here, I just know it was more of an accomplishment to complete a game because the designers wanted you to earn it, thus the implementation of certain constraints (no map, limited lives, etc).

I have more fun with modern games since they're a less stressful and irritating experience, but objectively, past games were designed (as a gaming experience) a lot better.

[Splits]

The "bridge" game for me was Everquest. Holy was that transcending of eras. It was then I started to reassess the "old vs. new" in video games. That said, don't have enough continuous blocks of hours to invest in MMORPGs these days, last one I played was WoW.

[baseline bum]

TV shows are levels better today, but the 90s was definitely better for movies, overall..

I think it's a good tradeoff. You could never have the level of storytelling in The Wire, The Sopranos, or Breaking Bad in a series of 3 or 4 two hour movies.

[baseline bum]

I have more fun with modern games since they're a less stressful and irritating experience, but objectively, past games were designed (as a gaming experience) a lot better.

I can't agree with this at all. With all the amazing things you can do in GTA V? You're telling me the Portal series isn't incredible design? What's its 1980s-1990s equivalent? I don't know what's so much better design about jumping over chasms and the like. What about Minecraft? A game where you can build your own electric circuits, your own castles, where you can make all sorts of crazy machines?

[midnightpulp]

You're mad that GTA V has a gps now? Or that you don't spend forever just driving between missions when you die? That was one of the things I hated about GTA IV (though I hated a lot of things about that piece of ).

No, I like it because I can be lazier and have more "fun," but it does take away something from the original GTA feel (learning the city and such).

I'm more a Half Life guy when it comes to old school fps. I have no idea what you mean by fps level design catering to children.

Old FPS map designs were basically mazes. Today's FPS map designs are very linear corridors with no alternative routes and invisible boundaries that basically lead you to your destination. Not to mention the big arrows you get telling you where you need to go.

Dragon Age Inquisition is a very hard game in dragon battles if you haven't spent the time building your characters up and learning how to use all of them together. I remember one of the battles took me more than an hour and that game doesn't allow you to stockpile potions like say Skyrim.

Haven't played it yet, and like I said, there's exceptions out there that still recall older game design and difficulty, but overall, games are pretty simplistic.

[baseline bum]

Haven't played it yet, and like I said, there's exceptions out there that still recall older game design and difficulty, but overall, games are pretty simplistic.

You're telling me games are simplistic now when you were talking about Defender and Mega Man? I don't get it.

[midnightpulp]

I can't agree with this at all. With all the amazing things you can do in GTA V? You're telling me the Portal series isn't incredible design? What's its 1980s-1990s equivalent? I don't know what's so much better design about jumping over chasms and the like. What about Minecraft? A game where you can build your own electric circuits, your own castles, where you can make all sorts of crazy machines?

What's the core obstacle of any game for a player to overcome (whether it be chess, videogames, or basketball?

Punishing/Penalizing you when you lose/fail. And from that failure, you learn how to better deal with whatever challenges the game (or your opponent, as in the case of sports or compe ive gaming) is presenting. When you get infinite lives and continues and always start from a convenient checkpoint, I think that undermines the idea of what a game is supposed to be. It's why modern games are more like interactive movies to me than actual games. Doesn't mean they're not fun, but good game design (to me) creates a compelling challenge that questions your certainty (i.e. Can I beat this game? Figure it out?). When I played Rise of the Tomb Raider, I already knew I was going to beat it before I ever logged into Steam.

Minecraft isn't really a game, more of a virtual Lego set. That's not to say it's not cool for what it is, but I can't really classify it as a "game." Portal is great. Like I said, there's always exceptions. Portal also comes from the cusp of when gaming started to get really dumbed down ('07), so Portal still retains that classic spirit imo.

[midnightpulp]

You're telling me games are simplistic now when you were talking about Defender and Mega Man? I don't get it.

Defender is simple to learn, but the things you need to learn to play the game for more than 3 or 4 minutes are pretty complex. A book could probably be written on Defender strategies. And no, I ain't good at it.

Mega Man takes a good deal of pattern recognition to play effectively. I don't see how Elizabeth throwing you health packs and ammo in Bioshock Infinite compares to what Mega Man forces you to deal with. To me, having an invincible companion that always bails you out is an example of simplicity, even though Bioshock Infinite is a glossy, "immersive" game.

[baseline bum]

What's the core obstacle of any game for a player to overcome (whether it be chess, videogames, or basketball?

Punishing/Penalizing you when you lose/fail. And from that failure, you learn how to better deal with whatever challenges the game (or your opponent, as in the case of sports or compe ive gaming) is presenting. When you get infinite lives and continues and always start from a convenient checkpoint, I think that undermines the idea of what a game is supposed to be. It's why modern games are more like interactive movies to me than actual games. Doesn't mean they're not fun, but good game design (to me) creates a compelling challenge that questions your certainty (i.e. Can I beat this game? Figure it out?). When I played Rise of the Tomb Raider, I already knew I was going to beat it before I ever logged into Steam.

Minecraft isn't really a game, more of a virtual Lego set. That's not to say it's not cool for what it is, but I can't really classify it as a "game." Portal is great. Like I said, there's always exceptions. Portal also comes from the cusp of when gaming started to get really dumbed down ('07), so Portal still retains that classic spirit imo.

How is Minecraft not a game? Because it doesn't have a rigid objective? That game has such beautiful design. What other game can you do something as complex as make working adders, working memory, working cpus? You complain about being told what to do through the GPS in GTA V but you like it in Mega Man when you're told to go right to fight the bad guy? The overkill difficulty was a remnant of when games wanted you to spend more quarters, I strongly disagree that game difficulty nosedived in the mid 2000s. It nosedived in the 90s when the arcades died off. When I bought Final Fantasy III on the SNES I knew I was going to beat it too. Same thing with Super Mario World, F-Zero (since when was that a hard game?), Earthworm Jim 2, Chrono Trigger, Zelda A Link to the Past, Super Metroid, and so on.

[baseline bum]

Defender is simple to learn, but the things you need to learn to play the game for more than 3 or 4 minutes are pretty complex. A book could probably be written on Defender strategies. And no, I ain't good at it.

Mega Man takes a good deal of pattern recognition to play effectively. I don't see how Elizabeth throwing you health packs and ammo in Bioshock Infinite compares to what Mega Man forces you to deal with. To me, having an invincible companion that always bails you out is an example of simplicity, even though Bioshock Infinite is a glossy, "immersive" game.

I don't know, it feels more immersive when I can duck behind cover, try to flank my enemies, try to use them against each other (eg baiting a tiger at a rebel camp in Far Cry 4) as opposed to just making the jump at the exact right time to not get hit by the hail of crap flying across the screen.

[midnightpulp]

How is Minecraft not a game? Because it doesn't have a rigid objective? That game has such beautiful design. What other game can you do something as complex as make working adders, working memory, working cpus? You complain about being told what to do through the GPS in GTA V but you like it in Mega Man when you're told to go right to fight the bad guy? The overkill difficulty was a remnant of when games wanted you to spend more quarters, I strongly disagree that game difficulty nosedived in the mid 2000s. It nosedived in the 90s when the arcades died off. When I bought Final Fantasy III on the SNES I knew I was going to beat it too. Same thing with Super Mario World, F-Zero (since when was that a hard game?), Earthworm Jim 2, Chrono Trigger, Zelda A Link to the Past, Super Metroid, and so on.

Yes. A game needs to have rules that bound you in a specific way. Games, by their very nature, are linear experiences. I can't just decide to start playing baseball in the middle of a basketball game.

Minecraft is a virtual Lego, erector, chemistry set all in one, as different to Portal as Legos are to monopoly.

The difference between the linearity of mega man and gta is getting to one place in the former is a lot more challenging than getting to one place in the later.

I do agree the Super Nintendo games were easier, since Nintendo's core market was younger than Sega's or the PC gaming market. But Super Metroid was still more challenging and better designed than games like Call of Duty and a host of other modern AAA les.

[baseline bum]

Yes. A game needs to have rules that bound you in a specific way. Games, by their very nature, are linear experiences. I can't just decide to start playing baseball in the middle of a basketball game.

Minecraft is a virtual Lego, erector, chemistry set all in one, as different to Portal as Legos are to monopoly.

The difference between the linearity of mega man and gta is getting to one place in the former is a lot more challenging than getting to one place in the later.

I do agree the Super Nintendo games were easier, since Nintendo's core market was younger than Sega's or the PC gaming market. But Super Metroid was still more challenging and better designed than games like Call of Duty and a host of other modern AAA les.

Call of Duty is a low hurdle to scale now, that series peaked with Modern Warfare 1. I'd have a hard time calling Super Metroid better designed than Witcher 3.

[ambchang]

Marantz SR6009 receiver.
Marantz 6200 turntable.
Acoustic Research AR11 speakers.
Rythmik sub woofer
Sony Super Audio CD player.

I'm not a speaker guy and only have a few headphone rigs that said, I'm saving up for a entry level speaker system.

Probably getting the Oppo bdp105 or the latest model, Nad m3, and some psb speakers. Trying to keep most of the set Canadian.

[midnightpulp]

I'm not a speaker guy and only have a few headphone rigs that said, I'm saving up for a entry level speaker system.

Probably getting the Oppo bdp105 or the latest model, Nad m3, and some psb speakers. Trying to keep most of the set Canadian.

Nice. What's your budget?

[baseline bum]

Yes. A game needs to have rules that bound you in a specific way. Games, by their very nature, are linear experiences. I can't just decide to start playing baseball in the middle of a basketball game.

So you're one of those bas s who doesn't like Calvinball? smh

[DMC]

If games were better in the past no one would have upgraded to play newer ones. Games drive technology quite a bit, and better games just means you are more entertained. Never heard of anyone saying their friend who interrupted them while playing Zelda ruined their immersion. So it's not the games that are worse. It's the fact that part of our ability to enjoy that medium has evolved so that we need more just to want to play it. You still see kids just as fascinated by Minecraft as you ever did, and plenty adults still play WoW. Some people prefer the linear approach to games, some prefer choices and then some just like puzzles.

Things are getting worse. You're getting less interested in new things.

[midnightpulp]

Call of Duty is a low hurdle to scale now, that series peaked with Modern Warfare 1. I'd have a hard time calling Super Metroid better designed than Witcher 3.

Witcher 2 is one of my all-time favorites, but you really can't compare Metroid to Witcher, since they're very different games. I'd compare the Witcher series to other CRPGs. (I haven't yet played Witcher 3). To me, the Witcher series doesn't do anything dramatically different than 90's PC role playing games.

The 2D Metroid series is probably still the apex of 2D action game design, though. And Metroid Prime was unbelievably good. Many critics consider it the best FPS ever made (as a single player experience, since Prime obviously doesn't do multiplayer).

[midnightpulp]

If games were better in the past no one would have upgraded to play newer ones. Games drive technology quite a bit, and better games just means you are more entertained. Never heard of anyone saying their friend who interrupted them while playing Zelda ruined their immersion.

It's because people love shiny graphics. I'm one. I basically play the newer games to admire the nice graphics (although we are slowing down immensely in that regard. I think you're about my age, and remember the graphical leaps we had in the 90's?) I have to justify the 2K I spent overall on my gaming rig somehow

[midnightpulp]

So you're one of those bas s who doesn't like Calvinball? smh

[ambchang]

Nice. What's your budget?

With that's setup it's about $5k CAD. I'm going all second hand though.

Oppo is tough to find second hand so that will be about $1500
M3 could be had for $1500
$2k will get me a decent used sychrony series or something like that.

Will be a long way though, as $5k isn't exactly chump change.

And my headphone rigs are great, doesn't have the soundstage as speakers but the precision and details are amazing.

[baseline bum]

And Metroid Prime was unbelievably good. Many critics consider it the best FPS ever made (as a single player experience, since Prime obviously doesn't do multiplayer).

I never played it, I'll have to get the ROM and run it through Dolphin.

[baseline bum]

I basically play the newer games to admire the nice graphics (although we are slowing down immensely in that regard.

It feels like that sometimes, but if I go back and play Skyrim or Witcher 2, the absolute pinnacles of 2011, they look like complete crap graphically to me after playing Witcher 3 or Dragon Age Inquisition running on my 970. Lighting effects like Nvidia HBAO+ or the tessellation effects on say pieces of armor in Dragon Age Inquisition can be really impressive, though those things might not come to consoles until the next generation of hardware.

[midnightpulp]

With that's setup it's about $5k CAD. I'm going all second hand though.

Oppo is tough to find second hand so that will be about $1500
M3 could be had for $1500
$2k will get me a decent used sychrony series or something like that.

Will be a long way though, as $5k isn't exactly chump change.

And my headphone rigs are great, doesn't have the soundstage as speakers but the precision and details are amazing.

On my phone now, but when I get home I'll rec some stuff. In any rig, you want the most of your budget to go to the speakers.

Also, how big is your listening room?

As for headphones, I take it you're running sennheiser 800 s, audeze, and the like?