NBA: Likes to screw with the spurs

[Killakobe81]

Multiple issues with this post.

a) which fan base whines more is a purely objective measure, and yet you are not able to provide any evidence whatsoever
b) just because the Spurs won didn't mean they weren't on the wrong end of the call that robs them of real chances of winning. Like JamStone mentioned, despite those calls, the Spurs still could've won. They won some and lost others
c) No, there are multiple teams that overcome shoddy officiating (Kings and Blazers haven't since 1977). The fact that the Spurs won despite shoddy officiating doesn't make them the only team to do so.
d) This is an article from ESPN, so if you want to say ESPN is a Spurs fan, or is a representation of the entire Spurs fanbase, go ahead.

Of course you have multiple issues ...

a) I dont go to every fans message board I think I only have visited Here, rox, LG and recently gstate and OKC (because members here pointed me there). go back to what I said ... "I have not seen". No where do I assume that what I am saying is fact ...of course it is objective. some fans on LG are delusional but they normally dont think the league is out to get them. They do blame cuban/gilbert/Stern still for the CP3 veto though ...

b) So are you implying that the league is deliberately screwing the spurs or do you think it's just accidental that a majority of the recent blown calls have worked against them?

c) shoddy officiating implies bad calls on BOTH sides not just impacting one

d) ESPN is a good site overall ... but we both know some of their stuff is click bait, some of it misguided and they have lost a lot of talent the past few years some of it good (Simmons/Tirico/Patrick) and plenty mediocre (Skip/Cowherd etc.) And even if we ignore that just because ESPN is feeding you a spurs got screwed hook doesnt mean you need to bite or swallow.

[ambchang]

The first missed call DID NOT tip the odds against them because they stole the ball and had a chance to win the game regardless. That missed call did not impact their chance to win the game.

More time, chance for a huddle to get a play set up, run a normal set play. Not sure how you can seriously say it didn't hurt the spurs.

The second missed call did hurt them, but all that needed to happen was LaMarcus making sure Westbrook didn't finish, and it was the same result as Kawhi fouling him. Same exact result with a fraction of a second less time. Something 6.7 seconds instead of 6 seconds. Whatever. So that missed call only hurt them because LaMarcus did not play through to the whistle. Their own fault.

It hurts them, but it's the Spurs fault for not overcoming an uneven field. It's laughable.

Could the Spurs have averted the situation? Sure, but they didn't have to otherwise. Again, can the murder victim survive? Sure! he should have dodged, but he didn't. His own fault.

Your analogy doesn't work because those missed calls were NOT the direct reason the Spurs lost. The analogy is better if the deranged killer pulled the trigger, the victim dodged the bullets, and then while running away safely, he trips over his own feet and falls on his own switchblade knife that he did not fold correctly and kills himself. In other words, the victim screwed himself.

I can see a bit of it, but this untrue, you are talking about it like there are no relationship between the two. If you want to go down this route, it's more akin to the victim getting hurt, bled profusely, and didn't go the nearest hospital to attend the wounds and died afterwards. The killer would still be guilty of murder in this case.

[ambchang]

Of course you have multiple issues ...

a) I dont go to every fans message board I think I only have visited Here, rox, LG and recently gstate and OKC (because members here pointed me there). go back to what I said ... "I have not seen". No where do I assume that what I am saying is fact ...of course it is objective. some fans on LG are delusional but they normally dont think the league is out to get them. They do blame cuban/gilbert/Stern still for the CP3 veto though ...

You have not seen, so you have to provide some type of objective evidence. And you just came up with an example to counter yourself.

b) So are you implying that the league is deliberately screwing the spurs or do you think it's just accidental that a majority of the recent blown calls have worked against them?

Honestly, I think it's not deliberate, but more subliminal. Their actions reflected their desires, even though they didn't set out to do it intentionally.

c) shoddy officiating implies bad calls on BOTH sides not just impacting one

And yet the Spurs got the shorter end of the stick in two games very close games this series.

d) ESPN is a good site overall ... but we both know some of their stuff is click bait, some of it misguided and they have lost a lot of talent the past few years some of it good (Simmons/Tirico/Patrick) and plenty mediocre (Skip/Cowherd etc.) And even if we ignore that just because ESPN is feeding you a spurs got screwed hook doesnt mean you need to bite or swallow.

Not bite or swallow, it's just the facts.

[Killakobe81]

The first missed call DID NOT tip the odds against them because they stole the ball and had a chance to win the game regardless. That missed call did not impact their chance to win the game.

The second missed call did hurt them, but all that needed to happen was LaMarcus making sure Westbrook didn't finish, and it was the same result as Kawhi fouling him. Same exact result with a fraction of a second less time. Something 6.7 seconds instead of 6 seconds. Whatever. So that missed call only hurt them because LaMarcus did not play through to the whistle. Their own fault.

Your analogy doesn't work because those missed calls were NOT the direct reason the Spurs lost. The analogy is better if the deranged killer pulled the trigger, the victim dodged the bullets, and then while running away safely, he trips over his own feet and falls on his own switchblade knife that he did not fold correctly and kills himself. In other words, the victim screwed himself.

Thing is for the most part Spur players and coaches are classy. Pop is an asshole to the media but he doesn't play the ref screwed us card. Same with gino. They have said EXACTLY what Jam did despite a call they disagreed with ...they blamed themselves for their losses.

Some spur fans dont get this ...seems like Amb is in that camp.

[ambchang]

Thing is for the most part Spur players and coaches are classy. Pop is an asshole to the media but he doesn't play the ref screwed us card. Same with gino. They have said EXACTLY what Jam did despite a call they disagreed with ...they blamed themselves for their losses.

Some spur fans dont get this ...seems like Amb is in that camp.

Which is why the Spurs get screwed twice in the same series. Are they the only team to have that honour (Having the short end of the stick in close games in two separate game in the same series)?

And it's not about getting it or not getting it. It's about what happened and what didn't happen. Could the Spurs have done more to win the game? Sure! They could have locked the Thunder down the entire game and won 95-0 too.

[Killakobe81]

You have not seen, so you have to provide some type of objective evidence. And you just came up with an example to counter yourself.



Honestly, I think it's not deliberate, but more subliminal. Their actions reflected their desires, even though they didn't set out to do it intentionally.



And yet the Spurs got the shorter end of the stick in two games very close games this series.



Not bite or swallow, it's just the facts.

how am I countering myself?
I said "I have not seen ..."
you said it's subjective.
We agree it's subjective..
I said it was subjective based out of the fan sites (i'll also throw in ESPN comments) that I visit.
I dont think it's realistic to expect me to go to EVERY team's message boards in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB ...and do a measurement on which team believes they get screwed by refs more.

I made a general statement same as many do here about Laker fan. or Meth city fans. Yankee fans etc.
Dont be obtuse.
(I will say Al davis era Raider fans had a similar mind-set especially after the tuck rule game)

[Killakobe81]

Which is why the Spurs get screwed twice in the same series. Are they the only team to have that honour (Having the short end of the stick in close games in two separate game in the same series)?

And it's not about getting it or not getting it. It's about what happened and what didn't happen. Could the Spurs have done more to win the game? Sure! They could have locked the Thunder down the entire game and won 95-0 too.

what happened is the spurs lost.
What also happened is OKC despite shoddy officiating and getting screwed on some calls throughout a 48 minute game they won with some help from a few calls that hindered the spurs.
The league admitted they missed a few calls for OKc.
The league admitted they missed a few more late for the SAS.

The series is now 3-2
I picked Spurs in 5 unless OKC split games 1 &2 which would then be Spurs in 6
IIRC you picked something similar.

Turns out we we were both wrong it's either OKC in 6 or 7 or Spurs in 7
The refs have had little to do with the above
Those are facts.

[FromWayDowntown]

The second missed call did hurt them, but all that needed to happen was LaMarcus making sure Westbrook didn't finish, and it was the same result as Kawhi fouling him. Same exact result with a fraction of a second less time. Something 6.7 seconds instead of 6 seconds. Whatever. So that missed call only hurt them because LaMarcus did not play through to the whistle. Their own fault.

For the record, I completely agree with your argument on all of this -- the Spurs had their chances, despite the poor officiating, and only have themselves to blame for the current situation. Neither the league nor the officials is trying to screw the Spurs, and officials are going to make mistakes (just like players and coaches do) and when those mistakes happen late in close games, their effect tends to be magnified, even if the mistake wasn't really determinative.

With that said, I've thought the focus on the Leonard/Aldridge/Westbrook play as critical in Game 5 is misplaced; the more significant call in the endgame was the Green foul on Durant, which the league says should have been an offensive foul on Adams instead of a shooting foul on Green. Durant gets 2 FTA there that OKC shouldn't have gotten and the Spurs have the ball looking to tie instead of looking to take a lead. I don't necessarily buy the argument that the calls evened out when Parker shot FT on the following possession, mostly because the league found that Adams had actually fouled Parker. While Parker crapped the bed by missing one of his free throws, even at that, his 1 make should have given the Spurs the lead late rather than leaving them a point behind.

The non-call/call on the last OKC play came after the horses were out of the barn in a sense. All things being equal, if Durant doesn't get FTA on the Green/Adams play -- the more important play in a real sense -- the Spurs are up 91-90 after the Parker split instead of being down 92-91. That would have significantly changed the way both teams approach the last OKC play.

Regardless, the Spurs had the ball in their hands with a chance to win the game at several points late in the 4th and essentially settled for 3 mid-range jumpers without ever getting the ball into Leonard's hands. That's inexcusably bad execution at this level, particularly because they also had significant leads (relative to the time remaining) before that and frittered them away with poor decision-making, passivity, and bad execution.

[Killakobe81]

For the record, I completely agree with your argument on all of this -- the Spurs had their chances, despite the poor officiating, and only have themselves to blame for the current situation.

With that said, I've thought the focus on the Leonard/Aldridge/Westbrook play as critical in Game 5 is misplaced; the more significant call in the endgame was the Green foul on Durant, which the league says should have been an offensive foul on Adams instead of a shooting foul on Green. Durant gets 2 FTA there that OKC shouldn't have gotten and the Spurs have the ball looking to tie instead of looking to take a lead. I don't necessarily buy the argument that the calls evened out when Parker shot FT on the following possession, mostly because the league found that Adams had actually fouled Parker. While Parker crapped the bed by missing one of his free throws, even at that, his 1 make should have given the Spurs the lead late rather than leaving them a point behind.

The non-call/call on the last OKC play came after the horses were out of the barn in a sense. All things being equal, if Durant doesn't get FTA on the Green/Adams play -- the more important play in a real sense -- the Spurs are up 91-90 after the Parker split instead of being down 92-91. That would have significantly changed the way both teams approach the last OKC play.

Regardless, the Spurs had the ball in their hands with a chance to win the game at several points late in the 4th and essentially settled for 3 mid-range jumpers without ever getting the ball into Leonard's hands. That's inexcusably bad execution at this level, particularly because they also had significant leads (relative to the time remaining) before that and frittered them away with poor decision-making, passivity, and bad execution.

I agree the Green/Adams play was more critical.
And tbh I am not even sure how the refs missed that one.
I have reffed soccer games at a high level and as humans we are far from perfect ...
But that should have been pretty clear for any ref to catch.

[ambchang]

how am I countering myself?
I said "I have not seen ..."
you said it's subjective.
We agree it's subjective..
I said it was subjective based out of the fan sites (i'll also throw in ESPN comments) that I visit.
I dont think it's realistic to expect me to go to EVERY team's message boards in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB ...and do a measurement on which team believes they get screwed by refs more.

I have not seen is actually objective. But I agree that the tally the results is onerous.

I made a general statement same as many do here about Laker fan. or Meth city fans. Yankee fans etc.
Dont be obtuse.
(I will say Al davis era Raider fans had a similar mind-set especially after the tuck rule game)

what happened is the spurs lost.
What also happened is OKC despite shoddy officiating and getting screwed on some calls throughout a 48 minute game they won with some help from a few calls that hindered the spurs.
The league admitted they missed a few calls for OKc.
The league admitted they missed a few more late for the SAS.

I think we both agree with the "more" and the "late" part.

The series is now 3-2
I picked Spurs in 5 unless OKC split games 1 &2 which would then be Spurs in 6
IIRC you picked something similar.

I thought it was Spurs in 5 because OKC is overrated. The Spurs didn't execute, and has most definitely under-performed so far.

Turns out we we were both wrong it's either OKC in 6 or 7 or Spurs in 7
The refs have had little to do with the above
Those are facts.

The refs have something to do with the above, how much of it is debatable. I tend to think that if not for the Green foul, the Spurs would be up 3-2 instead of down 2-3. I honestly don't think Game 2 calls would have had an impact one way or the other.

That said, to say that the Spurs were not screwed is incorrect. They were screwed.

[Killakobe81]

In addition to the great points from Downtown we have:

- rebounding Even with KL getting above average numbers at SF Spurs getting reamed on the glass
- Late game shot making has been poor
- Aldridge could not miss the first two games now seems a bit shaky
- no one outside of green/KL is hitting 3's with consistency
- KL is expending A LOT of energy almost like Lebron did in last year's finals
- duncan cannot finish inside
- West and Diaw are atrocious on defense and mediocre on offense. they are getting dominated by Adams/Kanter

All of those things hurt more than a few missed calls.

[FromWayDowntown]

I agree the Green/Adams play was more critical.
And tbh I am not even sure how the refs missed that one.
I have reffed soccer games at a high level and as humans we are far from perfect ...
But that should have been pretty clear for any ref to catch.

The stunning part about that call is that it was McCutchen who missed it. He's a lightning rod, to be sure, but he might be the most accurate of the truly elite officials in the game at this point. For him to blow that call in that moment was, um, disappointing.

[Killakobe81]

The stunning part about that call is that it was McCutchen who missed it. He's a lightning rod, to be sure, but he might be the most accurate of the truly elite officials in the game at this point. For him to blow that call in that moment was, um, disappointing.

I appreciate your perspective and candor.
And I dont blame you for feeling robbed by that call.
You are right he is a very good ref so to miss that is inexcusable ...but it happens.

[Bynumite]

Spurfan logic:

"Let's look at the final 13 seconds of game 2, now let's ignore the fact the first violation was committed by the spurs and the fact OKC had more calls not going their way than the spurs in those final 13 seconds. Now let's focus on the non calls against the spurs."

They just love to play the victim, that small market syndrome "Everyone is out to get us"

[ambchang]

Spurfan logic:

"Let's look at the final 13 seconds of game 2, now let's ignore the fact the first violation was committed by the spurs and the fact OKC had more calls not going their way than the spurs in those final 13 seconds. Now let's focus on the non calls against the spurs."

They just love to play the victim, that small market syndrome "Everyone is out to get us"

I can always count on you to miss the entire point of the thread.

[ambchang]

In addition to the great points from Downtown we have:

- rebounding Even with KL getting above average numbers at SF Spurs getting reamed on the glass
- Late game shot making has been poor
- Aldridge could not miss the first two games now seems a bit shaky
- no one outside of green/KL is hitting 3's with consistency
- KL is expending A LOT of energy almost like Lebron did in last year's finals
- duncan cannot finish inside
- West and Diaw are atrocious on defense and mediocre on offense. they are getting dominated by Adams/Kanter

All of those things hurt more than a few missed calls.

Again, you go on what the Spurs could have done to win the game, it's not about that. It's what the refs did that tipped the game in favour of OKC.

That is a fact, and the league acknowledged as such.

Could the Spurs have won despite that? Sure.

Would the Spurs have won if the league called everything perfectly? Maybe, maybe not, who knows.

But it is a fact that the refs made the wrong calls that benefited OKC more than the Spurs.

[daslicer]

Again, you go on what the Spurs could have done to win the game, it's not about that. It's what the refs did that tipped the game in favour of OKC.

That is a fact, and the league acknowledged as such.

Could the Spurs have won despite that? Sure.

Would the Spurs have won if the league called everything perfectly? Maybe, maybe not, who knows.

But it is a fact that the refs made the wrong calls that benefited OKC more than the Spurs.

The way I look at it there is always double standards in the NBA when it comes to officiating applied to teams that are either from small markets or lack players with media star power. In this case both teams are from small markets but OKC has the media star power hence they get the more favorable treatment. I don't expect Laker fans to understand this because when their teams have been on top they have had the double standard applied in their favor. I can't recall a time when the Lakers or any other big market team, media star power team has been ed over by the officials in the final few minutes of a playoff game like the Spurs have in this series.

[UZER]

Posted this in another thread

I never understand this logic. The game is 48 minutes long. If your close late, then you have every right to win as much as the other team regardless of what's happened before. How many times has GS pulled ty games out late?

The refs are supposed to be removed from who deserves to win the game. Their job is strictly to call violations. You can play like for 47 minutes, but if they game is close and you get fouled, or the other teams travels, or elbows a player on the inbounds, etc., you should get the call.

[ambchang]

The way I look at it there is always double standards in the NBA when it comes to officiating applied to teams that are either from small markets or lack players with media star power. In this case both teams are from small markets but OKC has the media star power hence they get the more favorable treatment. I don't expect Laker fans to understand this because when their teams have been on top they have had the double standard applied in their favor. I can't recall a time when the Lakers or any other big market team, media star power team has been ed over by the officials in the final few minutes of a playoff game like the Spurs have in this series.

The Lakers get the short end of the stick. It's not every elimination game they get a 20+ FTA advantage on the other team. They only got it 3 times since 2000, and how many elimination games did they play? They get screwed over royal sometimes.

[whitemamba]

[ECOV]

got

that's all?? Or you just going to say got again like you made a point ?