Zero penetration

[sasaint]

I just don't want that to sound like it's LMA's idea... Pop is the guy that decides how this team plays, tbh

It's LMA's game, and PATFO knew it when they signed him.

[ElNono]

Teams are usually built around the best players. On this team, offensively, the two guys who get the most volume are not good creators..it has just naturally evolved that way because they get the most touches.

It's LMA's game, and PATFO knew it when they signed him.

They're both valid points, but they obviate that LMA is really playing a 2nd banana role here, which is different than the role he had in the Blazers (while Lillard was up and coming, LMA was always the #1 guy).

I agree that this team has been tooled to be top heavy, due to personnel... but on that note, it's difficult to see how you still get those touches to those guys running penetration/kick... with LMA, you still get the long 2... Kawhi parked in the 3 point line waiting for a kick sounds like a waste...

In theory, penetration is a great way to get defenses scrambling (one of the best ways to shake up our defense, for example), but with this roster, what's the endgame? Get Danny, Patty, Kawhi 3 point looks? LMA the pick and pop? Maybe Dedmon some lobs... I mean, you know LMA and Kawhi are taking half the shots anyways, and so do the other teams..

[TD 21]

Murray is no worse today than Tony was in 2001. But Tony is Pop's son.

Parker is never being dropped from the rotation and the days of positional rigidity are gone. Murray playing doesn't have to come at the expense of Parker or Mills, when it can come at the expense of Simmons.

Of course Pop is going to be loyal to the big three; how could he not be? They've made him millions or dollars, a Hall-of-Fame career and given him the platform to play his shtick without getting criticized for it.

We went this style when LMA signed up, tbh... up until that time, we were doing the complete opposite. From playing inside-out with TD/shooters, to penetration and kick with Manu/Tony, to "Summertime"... always a lot of P&R mixed in... we were pretty much allergic to ISOs and long 2s...

That said, I thought we were the #1 defense in the league, tbh? Maybe #2 now right behind Utah?

Wrong. The Aldridge acquisition exacerbated it, but "we" went to it around the start of '15, when it became abundantly clear that Parker wasn't just in decline, but had fallen off a cliff and Leonard, who's like a rich man's DeRozan offensively, started to emerge as the offensive centerpiece.

The defense is between 1-3 or 4 depending on the day, but as it's been since the beginning of '14-'15, the antiquated, limited offense is the issue. The chemistry is also not the same, as Green repeatedly alludes to. If he were a free agent in '16 or '17 and the difference in money was the same, there's no doubt in my mind he wouldn't have re-signed.

[sananspursfan21]

[ElNono]

Wrong. The Aldridge acquisition exacerbated it, but "we" went to it around the start of '15, when it became abundantly clear that Parker wasn't just in decline, but had fallen off a cliff and Leonard, who's like a rich man's DeRozan offensively, started to emerge as the offensive centerpiece.

The defense is between 1-3 or 4 depending on the day, but as it's been since the beginning of '14-'15, the antiquated, limited offense is the issue. The chemistry is also not the same, as Green repeatedly alludes to. If he were a free agent in '16 or '17 and the difference in money was the same, there's no doubt in my mind he wouldn't have re-signed.

We won the 14-15 championship playing 'summertime'... That was never to be seen again (it was near impossible to replicate/sustain, if we're being realistic). Patty and Danny where hitting everything from outside too. The full ISO-jumper transformation came at the start of the 2015 season, IMO.

I don't disagree about the offense, tbh, but that's when we changed it: when our roster talent shifted dramatically towards LMA and Kawhi... everybody else, more or less, turned into a role player... that's why the Spurs can't really afford LMA to be another role player as currently constructed.

[skulls138]

They're both valid points, but they obviate that LMA is really playing a 2nd banana role here, which is different than the role he had in the Blazers (while Lillard was up and coming, LMA was always the #1 guy).

I agree that this team has been tooled to be top heavy, due to personnel... but on that note, it's difficult to see how you still get those touches to those guys running penetration/kick... with LMA, you still get the long 2... Kawhi parked in the 3 point line waiting for a kick sounds like a waste...

In theory, penetration is a great way to get defenses scrambling (one of the best ways to shake up our defense, for example), but with this roster, what's the endgame? Get Danny, Patty, Kawhi 3 point looks? LMA the pick and pop? Maybe Dedmon some lobs... I mean, you know LMA and Kawhi are taking half the shots anyways, and so do the other teams..

Yes and its still a work in progress. LA is second banana and its taking time for him to adjust both physically and mentally. When he first joined us it was KL doing all the hard work, steals, rebs, scoring etc and LA was mister jump shot, not breaking a sweat. Now he is doing the other stuff like he should. Yes he needs to score, and hopefully thats coming, but not at the expense of his rebs and D.

[TD 21]

We won the 14-15 championship playing 'summertime'... That was never to be seen again (it was near impossible to replicate/sustain, if we're being realistic). Patty and Danny where hitting everything from outside too. The full ISO-jumper transformation came at the start of the 2015 season, IMO.

I don't disagree about the offense, tbh, but that's when we changed it: when our roster talent shifted dramatically towards LMA and Kawhi... everybody else, more or less, turned into a role player... that's why the Spurs can't really afford LMA to be another role player as currently constructed.

No, "we" lost in the 1st round in '15 playing "Duncan turning back the clock" . . . unfortunately, that was never to be seen again.

This is revisionist history because the roster was the same in '13-'14 and '14-'15 and underwent significant change by '15-'16, but really it started in between and Leonard is a bigger reason for it than Aldridge, considering he plays slight more, has the ball in his hands more and has a higher usage rate.

Pop has become a parody of himself since the beginning of '14-'15, but any offensive "system" is predicated more on the style of play from the best player(s) than anything else. The not only can't replicate what they had, they can't even find a happy medium because they don't have the personnel for it.

[UZER]

Like I said, 2017 Pop would have 02 Parker and 03 Stephen Jackson sitting at the end of the bench.

Not saying Murray is the saviour this season, but not playing someone that clearly has the ability to do the one thing thing team is severely lacking in, just to prove they have to "earn it," is ridiculous. There are no gimme seasons. Another year wasted is another year wasted.

Murray should be starting next session, Tony off the bench. Tony would be a great backup playing with second units and be fresh due to less minutes.

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted.

[sasaint]

Like I said, 2017 Pop would have 02 Parker and 03 Stephen Jackson sitting at the end of the bench.

Not saying Murray is the saviour this season, but not playing someone that clearly has the ability to do the one thing thing team is severely lacking in, just to prove they have to "earn it," is ridiculous. There are no gimme seasons. Another year wasted is another year wasted.

Murray should be starting next session, Tony off the bench. Tony would be a great backup playing with second units and be fresh due to less minutes.

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted.

And possibly a signal to Kawhi to bolt.

[ElNono]

No, "we" lost in the 1st round in '15 playing "Duncan turning back the clock" . . . unfortunately, that was never to be seen again.

This is revisionist history because the roster was the same in '13-'14 and '14-'15 and underwent significant change by '15-'16, but really it started in between and Leonard is a bigger reason for it than Aldridge, considering he plays slight more, has the ball in his hands more and has a higher usage rate.

But Kawhi changed his shooting selection. Go take a look at the shooting #s for those years:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l#all_shooting
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l#all_shooting

In '14-'15, Kawhi was taking 21% or more of his shots from 0-3 feet, the rest (around 18%) outside, and 23% from 3.
In '15-'16, Kawhi was taking 20% or more of his shots from 0-3 feet, 20% from 10-16, and 26% from 3.

I'm not complaining, Kawhi shot over 50% in '15-'16, so it clearly worked in his favor.

Now, while you're there, take a look at LMA's shot selection from 16-3p line in '15-'16, and also David West. Then try to find anybody in '14-'15 taking that amount of shots from there. You won't find it. The only guy that comes close is Tony at 28%, but he was at 28% both years. So we didn't add one, but two guys that primarily shot jumpers from 16 out. That's not revisionism, the numbers bear it out.

Pop has become a parody of himself since the beginning of '14-'15, but any offensive "system" is predicated more on the style of play from the best player(s) than anything else. The not only can't replicate what they had, they can't even find a happy medium because they don't have the personnel for it.

I agree about this, tbh, I mentioned it last playoffs... It took an event of the magnitude of that Ray Allen 3 to light up the coaching fire on Pop again, the odds we're going to have a similar event soon is remote. I don't think he doesn't want to win, but the motivation just isn't the same, isn't entirely there. It sucks, but it's understandable up to an extent.

[ElNono]

Like I said, 2017 Pop would have 02 Parker and 03 Stephen Jackson sitting at the end of the bench.

Not saying Murray is the saviour this season, but not playing someone that clearly has the ability to do the one thing thing team is severely lacking in, just to prove they have to "earn it," is ridiculous. There are no gimme seasons. Another year wasted is another year wasted.

Murray should be starting next session, Tony off the bench. Tony would be a great backup playing with second units and be fresh due to less minutes.

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted.

Pop said many times he asked Manu to come off the bench, and if he would've said No, he would've started. So, I'm not so sure about this storyline. I think it has to do with the players too, tbh...

[gospursgojas]

Thought this was a thread about my GF's complaints about me

[lefty]

Porker got penetrated by Rose a lot tbh

[NASpurs]

Thought this was a thread about my GF's complaints about me

Bend over, I'll show your girlfriend zero penetration.

-Spursinsix

[tbdog]

I don't think it is a coincidence that LMA struggles are connected to this very issue.

[pgardn]

Murray is hopefully the next Parker but Pop won't give him a long leash like he did for young Parker.

Long leash...

You have got to be kidding.

[Horse]

Juice has been crapping his pants the last few games...

Its time Pop gives a look at Murray...

I have no issue playing Murray but when Simmons plays lately we win cause like you said penetration. Not that we didn't get plenty of looks and 2nd chances.

[Old School 44]

Like I said, 2017 Pop would have 02 Parker and 03 Stephen Jackson sitting at the end of the bench.

Not saying Murray is the saviour this season, but not playing someone that clearly has the ability to do the one thing thing team is severely lacking in, just to prove they have to "earn it," is ridiculous. There are no gimme seasons. Another year wasted is another year wasted.

Murray should be starting next session, Tony off the bench. Tony would be a great backup playing with second units and be fresh due to less minutes.

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted.

Agree...I believe Pop really feeds the "system" narrative, which looks good on him and the organization. He may do all the humble "get over myself" talk for the media, but in reality, it's a lot about Pop. He wants to take credit for developing Kawhi, and now Murray. Pop has been "wasting" players in development for the past few years, and in the process, indirectly wasting some very good Duncan years too.

[SAGirl]

I have no issue playing Murray but when Simmons plays lately we win cause like you said penetration. Not that we didn't get plenty of looks and 2nd chances.

I don't think you have watched him lately... he has been playing very bad and TO a lot when forcing his shots....
I mean I hope he rises above that and plays better (like all other Spurs) but he just has been nowhere to be found lately, except to be ting things up.

[DJR210]

Zero penetration like Ghazi

[SpursforSix]

I thought this was another Ghazi thread about his lovelife.

[SpursforSix]

Zero penetration like Ghazi

ah...you er!!!! LOL.

[HarlemHeat37]

Eh, this was an obvious flaw heading into the season with no potential fix, tbh(Pop isn't playing Murray over proven vets and HOFers)..

The front office has chosen to build the offense around 3 front court players, though..can't be surprised when you're lacking in explosive guards when you thought it would be a good idea to zig when the league zagged(the direction of the league, particularly matching up vs. GS)..

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Long leash...

You have got to be kidding.

Parker ed up so many times in 2001-02 and 2002-03 and yet Pop still trusted him as the QB of the future.

[spurs10]

TWSS!