Do you still see Tim Duncan as GOAT of the post-Jordan era?

[GSH]

I love Duncan, but he simply didn't score enough to be considered GOAT. Stats matter.

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

First of all, Tim played for 19 years, and LeBron has played for 14. Those last 5 years for Duncan were after he had begun to decline with age, and also after Pop had begun to reduce his minutes per game. You can't throw all the "old-Duncan" stats in against LeBron, who hasn't reached that age yet. If you compare LeBron's Per-36 scoring to Tim's, for the first 14 seasons, you would find that Tim averaged around 21 PTS/36, and LeBron around 25 PTS/36. Not such a huge difference that I would disqualify Tim on that basis. How about you?

For about 10 years, Tim averaged something like 11 FTA/36 minutes. LeBron never averaged over 9. That stat alone tells you what they had to do to try and contain Tim. He drew a hard double team on virtually every play during his prime years. Tim also averaged almost 12 RB/36 in his prime years vs. 6.7 for LeBron. If you want to discount the importance of those things, fire away.

It's always hard to get a handle on individual defensive contribution through stats. People always focus on blocks, and Tim averaged about 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes as LeBron during those first 15 seasons. (Roughly 2.2 BLK for Tim vs. .7 BLK for LeBron.) But it goes WAY beyond that. LeBron is a very good defender. But Tim was a ing mountain in the middle. LeBron disrupts plays - Tim disrupted games on defense. Game plans.

Put it another way. Put a 25 year-old Tim Duncan on this team and tell me what you think it would look like. In case you've forgotten, Tim put up 25.5 PTS, 12.7 REB, 3.7 AST, and 2.5 BLK. He was too much for any one player to handle on the offensive end, and he was a nightmare for other teams on the defensive end.

LeBron is a GREAT individual player. But nobody post-Jordan has done as much to make his TEAM a Championship contender as Timmy. So I guess GOAT depends a lot on how you measure greatness.

[Thomas82]

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

First of all, Tim played for 19 years, and LeBron has played for 14. Those last 5 years for Duncan were after he had begun to decline with age, and also after Pop had begun to reduce his minutes per game. You can't throw all the "old-Duncan" stats in against LeBron, who hasn't reached that age yet. If you compare LeBron's Per-36 scoring to Tim's, for the first 14 seasons, you would find that Tim averaged around 21 PTS/36, and LeBron around 25 PTS/36. Not such a huge difference that I would disqualify Tim on that basis. How about you?

For about 10 years, Tim averaged something like 11 FTA/36 minutes. LeBron never averaged over 9. That stat alone tells you what they had to do to try and contain Tim. He drew a hard double team on virtually every play during his prime years. Tim also averaged almost 12 RB/36 in his prime years vs. 6.7 for LeBron. If you want to discount the importance of those things, fire away.

It's always hard to get a handle on individual defensive contribution through stats. People always focus on blocks, and Tim averaged about 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes as LeBron during those first 15 seasons. (Roughly 2.2 BLK for Tim vs. .7 BLK for LeBron.) But it goes WAY beyond that. LeBron is a very good defender. But Tim was a ing mountain in the middle. LeBron disrupts plays - Tim disrupted games on defense. Game plans.

Put it another way. Put a 25 year-old Tim Duncan on this team and tell me what you think it would look like. In case you've forgotten, Tim put up 25.5 PTS, 12.7 REB, 3.7 AST, and 2.5 BLK. He was too much for any one player to handle on the offensive end, and he was a nightmare for other teams on the defensive end.

LeBron is a GREAT individual player. But nobody post-Jordan has done as much to make his TEAM a Championship contender as Timmy. So I guess GOAT depends a lot on how you measure greatness.

EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post!!

[SpursFan86]

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

First of all, Tim played for 19 years, and LeBron has played for 14. Those last 5 years for Duncan were after he had begun to decline with age, and also after Pop had begun to reduce his minutes per game. You can't throw all the "old-Duncan" stats in against LeBron, who hasn't reached that age yet. If you compare LeBron's Per-36 scoring to Tim's, for the first 14 seasons, you would find that Tim averaged around 21 PTS/36, and LeBron around 25 PTS/36. Not such a huge difference that I would disqualify Tim on that basis. How about you?

For about 10 years, Tim averaged something like 11 FTA/36 minutes. LeBron never averaged over 9. That stat alone tells you what they had to do to try and contain Tim. He drew a hard double team on virtually every play during his prime years. Tim also averaged almost 12 RB/36 in his prime years vs. 6.7 for LeBron. If you want to discount the importance of those things, fire away.

It's always hard to get a handle on individual defensive contribution through stats. People always focus on blocks, and Tim averaged about 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes as LeBron during those first 15 seasons. (Roughly 2.2 BLK for Tim vs. .7 BLK for LeBron.) But it goes WAY beyond that. LeBron is a very good defender. But Tim was a ing mountain in the middle. LeBron disrupts plays - Tim disrupted games on defense. Game plans.

Put it another way. Put a 25 year-old Tim Duncan on this team and tell me what you think it would look like. In case you've forgotten, Tim put up 25.5 PTS, 12.7 REB, 3.7 AST, and 2.5 BLK. He was too much for any one player to handle on the offensive end, and he was a nightmare for other teams on the defensive end.

LeBron is a GREAT individual player. But nobody post-Jordan has done as much to make his TEAM a Championship contender as Timmy. So I guess GOAT depends a lot on how you measure greatness.

25.1 points per 36 on 58.4 TS% and 20.7 points per 36 on 55.2 TS% are vastly different numbers.

Your point about FTA is flat-out false. LeBron averages 7.6 FTA per 36 for his career, and had 3 seasons where he was averaging 9+ FTA per 36. Duncan averaged 6.8 FTA for his first 14 seasons, and only had one season where he put up more than 8 FTA per 36.

You mention rebounds, but then conveniently leave out assists. LeBron averages 6.5 assists per 36 for his career; Duncan was at 3.1 for his first 14 seasons.

[TD 21]

I love Duncan, but he simply didn't score enough to be considered GOAT. Stats matter.

19-11-3 with 5 rings is amazing, but if Lebron were a Spur and Duncan were in the East, everyone here would scoff at the notion of 19-11-3 > 27-7-7.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Duncan was better than James (though I do think the way he won was more impressive), but relying heavily on counting stats is archaic and downright foolish. James is a more efficient, versatile scorer, but not to the extent their averages suggest. He has a 4.5% higher usage rate and has 1, 741 more 3's, so obviously he scored more.

I don't know why so many seem to be unaware of counting stats and scoring in particular, being largely tied to cir stance and mindset. Aldridge is a perfect example. As bad as he'd looked offensively this season, he's actually been in line with what he's done throughout his career. He's averaging 4-6 less ppg because his usage rate has dropped by 3-6% and his minutes by 4-5 per game. He'd still be the same player if he were averaging 21-23 again, though.

[tenbeersbold]

No one who has hidden out East for his whole career deserves to be in the conversation with Duncan,sorry!

East has been e since Duncan dismantled the Pistons
If Leloser was all about the game,he'd a come out west to battle the best players on a regular basis

He hid so he ain't even in the conversation.

[Keepin' it real]

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Duncan was better than James (though I do think the way he won was more impressive), but relying heavily on counting stats is archaic and downright foolish. James is a more efficient, versatile scorer, but not to the extent their averages suggest. He has a 4.5% higher usage rate and has 1, 741 more 3's, so obviously he scored more.

I don't know why so many seem to be unaware of counting stats and scoring in particular, being largely tied to cir stance and mindset.

I look at things from an overall career perspective, so the final averages are most important. I'm a casual fan, as most are. And from a casual fan perspective, I can tell you 19 ppg doesn't belong in any greatest NBA player discussion. It simply isn't a high enough scoring average.

I still happily wear my Spurs 21 jersey!

[Thomas82]

I look at things from an overall career perspective, so the final averages are most important. I'm a casual fan, as most are. And from a casual fan perspective, I can tell you 19 ppg doesn't belong in any greatest NBA player discussion. It simply isn't a high enough scoring average.

I still happily wear my Spurs 21 jersey!

I guess Magic Johnson shouldn't be discussed among the greatest ever then, his career average is 19.5 PPG.

[GSH]

I look at things from an overall career perspective, so the final averages are most important. I'm a casual fan, as most are. And from a casual fan perspective, I can tell you 19 ppg doesn't belong in any greatest NBA player discussion. It simply isn't a high enough scoring average.

I still happily wear my Spurs 21 jersey!

Well you're casual all right. Someone says GOAT, and you think "best scorer". That's what casual fans do, which is why we have the "new NBA".

If you're going to use just raw stats that way then you really have to consider Kevin Durant. I mean, you do know he's outscored LeBron for 7 of the last 8 years... right? His EFG% has been better, his 3P% has been better over that time. His 2P% has been better over that time. His FT% has been WAY better. But you wouldn't consider calling Durant the GOAT for the last 8 years? Why not? Because you're considering other things, besides just scoring?

Be a casual fan, but at least think about what you're saying.

[jimbo]

until last year he was. 3-1 comeback against a 73 win team putting up the numbers he did put Lebron over Duncan

[DMC]

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

First of all, Tim played for 19 years, and LeBron has played for 14. Those last 5 years for Duncan were after he had begun to decline with age, and also after Pop had begun to reduce his minutes per game. You can't throw all the "old-Duncan" stats in against LeBron, who hasn't reached that age yet. If you compare LeBron's Per-36 scoring to Tim's, for the first 14 seasons, you would find that Tim averaged around 21 PTS/36, and LeBron around 25 PTS/36. Not such a huge difference that I would disqualify Tim on that basis. How about you?

For about 10 years, Tim averaged something like 11 FTA/36 minutes. LeBron never averaged over 9. That stat alone tells you what they had to do to try and contain Tim. He drew a hard double team on virtually every play during his prime years. Tim also averaged almost 12 RB/36 in his prime years vs. 6.7 for LeBron. If you want to discount the importance of those things, fire away.

It's always hard to get a handle on individual defensive contribution through stats. People always focus on blocks, and Tim averaged about 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes as LeBron during those first 15 seasons. (Roughly 2.2 BLK for Tim vs. .7 BLK for LeBron.) But it goes WAY beyond that. LeBron is a very good defender. But Tim was a ing mountain in the middle. LeBron disrupts plays - Tim disrupted games on defense. Game plans.

Put it another way. Put a 25 year-old Tim Duncan on this team and tell me what you think it would look like. In case you've forgotten, Tim put up 25.5 PTS, 12.7 REB, 3.7 AST, and 2.5 BLK. He was too much for any one player to handle on the offensive end, and he was a nightmare for other teams on the defensive end.

LeBron is a GREAT individual player. But nobody post-Jordan has done as much to make his TEAM a Championship contender as Timmy. So I guess GOAT depends a lot on how you measure greatness.

I agree with most of this except for the fact that Lebron was in Cleveland, they made it to the Finals. He goes to Miami, they make it every year he's there. He goes back to Cleveland, they've made it every year he's been there. Prior to Lebron, Cleveland was a lottery team.

You cannot make your team much better than Lebron has made his, help or not, because help comes for a reason.

[GSH]

I agree with most of this except for the fact that Lebron was in Cleveland, they made it to the Finals. He goes to Miami, they make it every year he's there. He goes back to Cleveland, they've made it every year he's been there. Prior to Lebron, Cleveland was a lottery team.

You cannot make your team much better than Lebron has made his, help or not, because help comes for a reason.

Can't argue with LeBron being damned good.

How about this? If I'm starting a franchise, and I get to pick one of the two GOAT candidates, I'll pick the tall one who's a perennial anchor in the middle?

[Thomas82]

I suspect LeBron might get a pass for missing the playoffs in his first year in the West. Either way, it's not a good look for him.

[GreekSpursfan]

Short answer YES.

[RC_Drunkford]

of course. Duncan is an Top 5 all-time player

[Thomas82]

of course. Duncan is an Top 5 all-time player

Facts!!

[rascal]

I think of things in decades:

pre-70: Bill Russell
70's: Kareem
80's: Magic/Bird
90's: MJ
2000's: Timmy
2010's: Lebron

MJ overlapped with Bird/Magic in a very similar way to Lebron with Kobe/Timmy.

You forget Wilt?