ESPN's Kevin Pelton thinks Murray should be first team All-NBA defense

[duncan2k5]

So hes got ty bbiq, cant shoot, cant pass, cant run a fast break, hes just really weak and thin. Got it.

U hate Murray?

[HarlemHeat37]

Do you see anyone getting credit for the Spurs defense then?

With all due respect to Chinook, Danny hasn't been spectacular this year, there is no signature game from him like there was last year where he really stood out. Meantime Dejounte has had some spectacular games including one with 7 steals against the cavs and the one against Westbrook.

Overall the star is probably Lamarcus though the stats don't favor him over other big men. When he sits the Spurs are pretty bad overall no matter if Murray, Kyle or Danny are playing. One just has to watch games Lamarcus missed to see how terrible they are then.

I'd like someone to get credit this year, but maybe no one does, which would be a shame.

Why would anybody need to get credit in terms of accolades to explain their defensive success? The Spurs have 4 very good defensive players and a great system, along with the benefit of continuity..they don't have a Gobert or Embiid or Draymond that single-handedly changes a defense, nor have they needed one, they rely on the whole of the unit(especially since literally every player after those 4 is a bad defender )

It's pretty rare to have signature defensive games nowadays, since isolation defense is far less important today, it's virtually impossible to defend a great offensive player 1 on 1 with the ultra-skill, spacing and foul calls..most people don't notice great team defense, which is what counts today..

Pelton's article is strange, since he's clearly relying mostly on RPM, yet excludes Kyle Anderson, an on/off monster who should easily make an all-defensive team..

[YGWHI]

U hate Murray?

Yes, he does. He hates most Spurs roster...

Don't worry, he's just a troll here.

[TD 21]

Do you see anyone getting credit for the Spurs defense then?

With all due respect to Chinook, Danny hasn't been spectacular this year, there is no signature game from him like there was last year where he really stood out. Meantime Dejounte has had some spectacular games including one with 7 steals against the cavs and the one against Westbrook.

Overall the star is probably Lamarcus though the stats don't favor him over other big men. When he sits the Spurs are pretty bad overall no matter if Murray, Kyle or Danny are playing. One just has to watch games Lamarcus missed to see how terrible they are then.

I'd like someone to get credit this year, but maybe no one does, which would be a shame.

Possibly Green. He's been slightly worse, but Leonard and possibly Roberson won't be candidates, which should help him.

Aldridge might get some votes, but he's not making it.

In the end, as usual Pop will be given the most credit, especially now that they've become largely irrelevant (outside of the Leonard fiasco) and it's no longer en vogue to credit them.

[Chinook]

Do you see anyone getting credit for the Spurs defense then?

With all due respect to Chinook, Danny hasn't been spectacular this year, there is no signature game from him like there was last year where he really stood out.

Unless "this year" only means like the past few games, Danny's had a number of stellar defensive games this season, including the opener where he shut down Butler, the first Raptors game where he got five blocks and held DeRozan down. Just last month, he had six blocks to help the Spurs flip the Pelicans for the only time this season. This also ignores the OKC games where he held PG in check until Pop benched him in the final game and the Cleveland games where he did as much as anyone to get them those wins. Ignoring the question of whether Murray is "most worthy" of getting the nod, Green's has his own highlight reel to play if he gets a second-consecutive selection.

[SAGirl]

Why would anybody need to get credit in terms of accolades to explain their defensive success? The Spurs have 4 very good defensive players and a great system, along with the benefit of continuity..they don't have a Gobert or Embiid or Draymond that single-handedly changes a defense, nor have they needed one, they rely on the whole of the unit(especially since literally every player after those 4 is a bad defender )

It's pretty rare to have signature defensive games nowadays, since isolation defense is far less important today, it's virtually impossible to defend a great offensive player 1 on 1 with the ultra-skill, spacing and foul calls..most people don't notice great team defense, which is what counts today..

Pelton's article is strange, since he's clearly relying mostly on RPM, yet excludes Kyle Anderson, an on/off monster who should easily make an all-defensive team..

He definitely snubbed Anderson who increases a ton of deflections and stewls , pitches in blocks and now he's tasked with rim defense playing as a big. If anything Kyle is the one that has had the most on his plate replacing in the lineup a guy who won DPYO twice. Think the system argument prejudices against him. He's had multiple 5 steals games, has been tasked with both perimeter defense and rim protection. He's definitely impactful.

Perhaps the best counter arguments against your own argument is that Murray really is that individually gifted. Subs ute him for Tony or Forbes, even Manu and the Spurs defense is . He's indeed that individually impactful. As I said I am only mildly bitter bc Kyle got snubbed but I think Murray is deserving. If the argument against him is simply reputation that's lame.

[SAGirl]

Possibly Green. He's been slightly worse, but Leonard and possibly Roberson won't be candidates, which should help him.

Aldridge might get some votes, but he's not making it.

In the end, as usual Pop will be given the most credit, especially now that they've become largely irrelevant (outside of the Leonard fiasco) and it's no longer en vogue to credit them.

Good points on the compe ion.
I think Danny has had a down season for his standards. He has missed games, been hobbled and is coming off the bench some games. He just hasn't been that impressive lately compared to what we know he's capable of and can do. I don't think one has stood out the most defensively this year. Murray has been impresisve. Anderson too.

[dabom]

Dwanye Dedman a lock for DPOY.

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs defensive numbers are terrible with Murray off the floor.

With Murray on the floor, Spurs are allowing only 100.6 offensive rating for the opposition. Which would make the Spurs the #1 Defense in the NBA when Murray is playing.

With Murray off the floor, Spurs are allowing a whopping 108.8 offensive rating. Spurs have the 15th-18th defensive in the NBA when Murray is not playing.

No other player on the roster makes this kind of impact on the defensive end. Not Kyle, not even LMA.

You can nitpick mistakes from any and every player in the NBA from a game -- and people like Chinook can with Murray... but at the end of the day Murrays' defensive impact is greater than anyone elses on the active roster.

[dabom]

Murray's rebounding alone put him up there. His "other" tangibles put him in the discussion. Better than fathead for sure.

[lefty]

Better than Porker....

[SAGirl]

Spurs defensive numbers are terrible with Murray off the floor.

With Murray on the floor, Spurs are allowing only 100.6 offensive rating for the opposition. Which would make the Spurs the #1 Defense in the NBA when Murray is playing.

With Murray off the floor, Spurs are allowing a whopping 108.8 offensive rating. Spurs have the 15th-18th defensive in the NBA when Murray is not playing.

No other player on the roster makes this kind of impact on the defensive end. Not Kyle, not even LMA.

You can nitpick mistakes from any and every player in the NBA from a game -- and people like Chinook can with Murray... but at the end of the day Murrays' defensive impact is greater than anyone elses on the active roster.

That's one of the best arguments in his favor.
As I said, one of the biggest weaknesses in "system" arguments is stuff like this.

[TheGreatYacht]

If that Lou williams & Kyle Kuzma dumpster Danny Green is an All-NBA defender. You bet your sweet ass Murray is too.

[tholdren]

Spurs defensive numbers are terrible with Murray off the floor.

With Murray on the floor, Spurs are allowing only 100.6 offensive rating for the opposition. Which would make the Spurs the #1 Defense in the NBA when Murray is playing.

With Murray off the floor, Spurs are allowing a whopping 108.8 offensive rating. Spurs have the 15th-18th defensive in the NBA when Murray is not playing.

No other player on the roster makes this kind of impact on the defensive end. Not Kyle, not even LMA.

You can nitpick mistakes from any and every player in the NBA from a game -- and people like Chinook can with Murray... but at the end of the day Murrays' defensive impact is greater than anyone elses on the active roster.

Wrong..... and dumb

[.G.]

What could've been. Leonard and Murray defending together. Damn shame.

[Chinook]

Spurs defensive numbers are terrible with Murray off the floor.

With Murray on the floor, Spurs are allowing only 100.6 offensive rating for the opposition. Which would make the Spurs the #1 Defense in the NBA when Murray is playing.

With Murray off the floor, Spurs are allowing a whopping 108.8 offensive rating. Spurs have the 15th-18th defensive in the NBA when Murray is not playing.

No other player on the roster makes this kind of impact on the defensive end. Not Kyle, not even LMA.

You can nitpick mistakes from any and every player in the NBA from a game -- and people like Chinook can with Murray... but at the end of the day Murrays' defensive impact is greater than anyone elses on the active roster.

Again, this is disingenuous. Murray's current "defensive impact" is smaller than his season-long numbers, that's how his on-offs have fallen so far recently. It does no good to the argument to ignore that Murray's recent on-offs are probably neutral or only slightly positive

[picnroll]

Aka at spurstalk dumb fans overvalue below average players. Since kyle or murray wont fetch harden or james straight up, other gms must not know their true value

Actually Murray is pretty good on the fast break. Not so great in the half court. Blind bias leads to some dumb comments. Dumb bomb on Fatty. holdren on Murray. Peas in a pod.

[tholdren]

Actually Murray is pretty good on the fast break. Not so great in the half court. Blind bias leads to some dumb comments.

Wrong

[MaNu4Tres]

Again, this is disingenuous. Murray's current "defensive impact" is smaller than his season-long numbers, that's how his on-offs have fallen so far recently. It does no good to the argument to ignore that Murray's recent on-offs are probably neutral or only slightly positive

That's not accurate at all. His DRPM has actually improved recently.

And the opposition's offensive rating has remained between 7-8 point differential with Murray on compared to off all year pretty much..No dip.

[Chinook]

That's not accurate at all. His DRPM has actually improved.

You didn't cite DRPM; you cited his on-offs.

[MaNu4Tres]

You didn't cite DRPM; you cited his on-offs.

His RPM ( up to 17 in NBA), & DRPM ( 1st in NBA -- which hes held all year by the way) has improved the past month.

The on/off defense ( which is what we are talking about), has remained pretty much the same all year and has recently improved. On the defensive end, Spurs are allowing 108.6 points per 100 possessions when he's off the floor. That hasn't really changed all year. When he's on, Spurs are only allowing 100.6 --- which hasn't really changed much either.

A big reason Spurs have a top 2 D is because of DeJounte playing. When he's on the bench the D grades out as a 15th-18th defense. That is a fact.

I was specifically talking about his on/off defensive numbers-- since the argument was about his defense.

This aspect has not declined in recent weeks or recent months like you mentioned.

[Chinook]

His RPM ( up to 17 in NBA), & DRPM ( 1st in NBA -- which hes held all year by the way) has improved the past month.

I wouldn't know if it has or hasn't.

The on/off defense ( which is what we are talking about), has remained pretty much the same all year and has recently improved.

So your defense is that his offense has straight fallen off a cliff recently, and that's the sole reason why his on-offs are on the downtrend? To be fair, I didn't chart just defense, because that's actually kinda dumb to do with impact stats in a sport like basketball which constantly switches between the two.

A big reason Spurs have a top 2 D is because of DeJounte playing. When he's on the bench the D grades out as a 15th-18th defense. That is a fact.

"It's a fact" that his off numbers are lower than the total numbers for 14-17 teams, not that if Murray had gotten lost at sea a few months ago that the Spurs would be in the ter defensively. Since you seem to love ignoring context, it wouldn't be hard to cite White's numbers and assume the Spurs would be at least fine had he gotten the nod instead.

I was specifically talking about his on/off defensive numbers-- since the argument was about his defense.

This aspect has not declined in recent weeks or recent months like you mentioned.

Again, I don't know if you're right. His on numbers are definitely not in the 90s like they used to be. But I'm not sure how recently they fell down from there.

[picnroll]

Of late Murry’s been on the court a lot more with Fatty. That won’t help anyone’s defensive numbers.

[MaNu4Tres]

I wouldn't know if it has or hasn't.



So your defense is that his offense has straight fallen off a cliff recently, and that's the sole reason why his on-offs are on the downtrend? To be fair, I didn't chart just defense, because that's actually kinda dumb to do with impact stats in a sport like basketball which constantly switches between the two.



"It's a fact" that his off numbers are lower than the total numbers for 14-17 teams, not that if Murray had gotten lost at sea a few months ago that the Spurs would be in the ter defensively. Since you seem to love ignoring context, it wouldn't be hard to cite White's numbers and assume the Spurs would be at least fine had he gotten the nod instead.



Again, I don't know if you're right. His on numbers are definitely not in the 90s like they used to be. But I'm not sure how recently they fell down from there.

The offensive on/off offensive rating only declines by 1.9 points with Murray on the floor compared to when he's off.

And the whole thread is about Murray's defense -- which was what everyone is referring to -- including myself.

Don't back peddle now.

[Keepin' it real]

called Murray's defense & rebounding back in the off-season.

Congratulations.