This is bull , not necessarily in the sense that your analysis of PATFO's reasoning is wrong. But there's no justification for it. I REALLY don't want to get into a situation where I can be perceived as rooting against Murray or whatever, but the D was WAY more than just him last year. There's a reason why Green and Anderson are having great defensive years as starters for teams near the top of the standings. If Pop thought just Murray was going to make up for not just those guys leaving but for DeRozan and Beli replacing them, he's off his ing rocker. As someone mentioned, Murray isn't Kawhi. You don't put yourself in a situation where he has to be the DPOY for your club not to be terrible on that end. I can't rationalize how "the plan" was to not have three-and-D wings when they had enjoyed so much success with those players. Like how is Murray, DeRozan, Green with Gay off the bench not better than Murray, DeRozan, Gay with someone like Cun coming off the bench?
Yeah, DeRozan will need a shooter or two next to him to succeed so long as he has LMA on the team. He's just not a good enough off-ball player to deal with two other guys taking touches. The only reason it sort of works with Gay is Rudy taking and making more threes.-I don’t know if White is the answer as a starter. Let’s ignore the fact that his play and production this season has been poor – the bigger issue is DeRozan is most useful when he’s handling the ball a ton. He’s useless off the ball because he’s not a three-point shooter; he even hesitates to shoot wide open corner threes. Starting Bryn Forbes as the point-guard-in-name-only but letting DeRozan run the show appears to be the way to go. The Spurs stumbled into that particularly alignment but it looks to be the best bet going forward.
I think Pop's gotta stick with Cun. He made that switch back to him because Rudy showed no ability at all to check Gibson. This isn't rare for Gay either. You can say what you want about net ratings or whatever, but Pop's never going to go for a scheme where a guy is just being backed down relentlessly like Gay was. The way Rudy played Taj was not acceptable. Maybe Bertans would have done better, but he's had his share of failures there. Yes, the team needs someone better than Cun, but they don't have anyone better. Barring a trade, they have to go with someone who at least tries on D and on the boards.-So, who should the fifth starter be next to Forbes, DeRozan, Rudy Gay and Aldridge. Cunningham isn’t the answer. I’d like it to be White since he has untapped upside but I don’t think it’s him, either. Even though Poeltl has played a lot better lately, I don’t think it can be him because Aldridge would struggle too much against modern day power forwards on defense. If someone isn’t brought in from the outside, I think Davis Bertans has to be given a shot. There’s really no other logical possibility.
The team is at a crossroads. Their personnel is just not good enough. DeRozan isn't a good enough player to be the ace on a Western contender. Aldridge isn't good enough anymore to be a top second option. Gay isn't good/healthy enough to be a consistent third option. Their role-players have too many obvious flaws and not enough obvious advantages. The young players are too raw/injured/Derrick White to expect them to make a difference this year. They have two weeks (and two days) until the trade window opens up for Gay and Beli (and guys like Cun and Pon). I'd give the team those two weeks to demonstrate who they are. If they pull out of their tailspin and are a solid playoff team by the time that window opens, then you look to make something happen with Gasol and other ballast. If they don't show that, then you start seeing what you can get for some of these guys, with an eye toward a power-tank into a reloading year. If the wheels completely fall off, you don't even worry about that and just fire sale guys. This team was built wrong and is coached wrong. It reminds me of the 2015 Heat in terms of an organization trying to show it was better than it's former star and just failing.
I believe we will still have many threads with no grades in this season
if the front office really believed that Murray without wings that could defend at the nba level without help, can really turn our defense to the elite level,is just one of the many mistakes they have made in recent years, actually that mistake could be the worst and more ridiculous of all, since it would be the guiding thread of the construction of this roster
Last edited by r0drig0lac; 11-29-2018 at 05:26 AM.
I mean, we're going to have to agree to disagree. If anything, I think Forbes should shoot even more. His strength is shooting and I think he could and should shoot about 10-15% more than he does -- particularly from three-point range. As long as he keeps his percentage in the same neighborhood, Forbes shooting is more productive than Aldridge or DeRozan shooting.
Defensively, yes, Forbes hasn't been good but who on the Spurs has? Forbes has consistently played harder on defense than anyone on the team, in my estimation. Sure, the results are still lacking but it's not like the Spurs have better options. Maybe when White has shaken off the rookie rust (or whatever ails him) and Walker is up to speed, the situation will change. But for now, I can't see how Forbes is a liability compared to other options.
Last season, the Spurs replaced an MVP level Kawhi with an MVP level Aldridge. This year, MVP Aldridge is missing in action, DeRozan's game isn't well-rounded enough to have an MVP level impact, the third banana was lost for the season and the fourth banana is playing on one leg when he can play at all.
I really do think the front office swung for the fences with the roster construction. Rewinding to the offseason, the one way the Spurs could be legit le contenders was if Murray took a gigantic step forward. That step forward would include Murray turning into a Gary Payton with go go gadget arms who could make the Spurs strong defensively practically all by himself (some advanced stats showed that he did that for the most part last season, so it wasn't totally crazy -- the Spurs were damn good defensively no matter who Murray played with last season). The problem with relying on Murray so much, in theory, is the offense would suffer. Thus, you add offensive role players rather than defensive role players.
They were hoping for a miracle with that plan from the get-go but there is logic behind it. If there goal was simply make the playoffs, they could have gone a more conservative route. I think they wanted to contend ... and to do that, they had to push all their chips in front of Murray's development.
But ... the Spurs didn't sign a three-and-D wing. I don't buy the way of thinking that the Spurs ended up without a three-and-D wing on accident. It was obviously part of the plan, was it not?
Another thing to note is it looks like Pop was expecting huge things out of White this season. Going back to the preseason, he was usually the first player off the bench and was heavily involved in all the sets. White isn't exactly three-and-D but it's pretty easy to imagine him as being a lockdown defender off the bench who also provides extra penetration ... as is needed in today's NBA. So I think White was actually the replacement for traditional three-and-D personnel in "the plan." That he got injured and is now struggling is more detrimental to the team's success than most realize, IMO. It also explains why Pop is so desperate to jumpstart White's season (starting him right away, forcing him back into the starting lineup tonight, etc.).
Tough to say if the team was built wrong when the team's one-man defense was lost for the season in the preseason. I mean, yeah, the Spurs 99% weren't winning a championship regardless but we never even got to see a test run of what could have been. Murray wasn't the team's best player when he got hurt but I'd say he was in line to be the team's most impactful.
I do agree Pop has made mistakes. Number one on that list is leaning on Cunningham too much, IMO. It's Chucky Brown all over again.
Thanks Timvp. As always I agree with most of your comments.
This was the first game this season which I stopped watching at the half, and I don't usually do it even in case of blowouts. Actually I generally even enjoy rooting for the loosing underdog team but only if the team tries hard. But unfortunately this unit is not only frustrating defensively and offensively but also not feisty enough and not fun to watch.
We are lacking energy guys, especially in the starting line-up. Everybody is low energy. That's why I think we should try starting Mills even for a couple of games because he seems to be the only energy guy on the roster. You can start him instead of Forbes or instead of Cun. It's like Celtics having a low energy problem with their "supposed to be all-star good" line-up of Irving, Brown, Tatum, Hayword & Horford; they seem to turn it around with starting Smart.
Thanks for taking the time to do a write-up on such a ty game by the Spurs.
I would definitely try it after a blowout like this one
If they wanted to contend, they should have kept Kawhi and made that apparent trade for a third star. , even if they should have made a Kawhi trade that complimented their plan. Hoping Murray can over up everyone else is just weird, especially if the goal was to legit contend. The Spurs held onto Walker and didn't parlay Poe and 18 into win-now talent. I don't really think they were all-in.
Again, I'm trying to avoid making controversial statements, but I can't go with the idea that Murray can carry a defense in the way a guy like Gobert can. I don't disagree that PATFO didn't prioritize three-and-D wings in the off-season. They definitely preferred spacing for their stars. But Murray and a bunch of bad defenders doesn't seem better than a more balanced approach. The Spurs won 47 games pretty much be being an elite defense. Simply keeping that together while turning Kawhi into a scoring player that can fit with the defensive nucleus. If you're already hoping Murray is a legit offensive player, then going for a player like Bradley Beal makes more sense. Then you can keep Anderson over Bertans and pick up one of the many decent cheap bigs on the market rather than having Poeltl thrown in (though Kawhi and Gasol would combine for so much more than Beal's salary that Washington probably has to send back Jason Smith to make the numbers work anyway).But ... the Spurs didn't sign a three-and-D wing. I don't buy the way of thinking that the Spurs ended up without a three-and-D wing on accident. It was obviously part of the plan, was it not?
Another thing to note is it looks like Pop was expecting huge things out of White this season. Going back to the preseason, he was usually the first player off the bench and was heavily involved in all the sets. White isn't exactly three-and-D but it's pretty easy to imagine him as being a lockdown defender off the bench who also provides extra penetration ... as is needed in today's NBA. So I think White was actually the replacement for traditional three-and-D personnel in "the plan." That he got injured and is now struggling is more detrimental to the team's success than most realize, IMO. It also explains why Pop is so desperate to jumpstart White's season (starting him right away, forcing him back into the starting lineup tonight, etc.).
I think Pop sees White as the realization of Danny Green more than he does as a true PG. I would call him a lockdown defender at all, but I would say he could hold his own there while helping the D out in other areas. And Walker may garner similar expectations. But the team totally seemed to think that Gay and Cun could adequately defend forwards, with Rudy even starting on threes. That's more the problem than defensive guards. Green, Leonard and Anderson all defend SFs in addition to other positions. White doesn't have the same profile to do that. Walker might be better at it, but any bigger SF and most PFs are likely well out of his range.
I don't think so. Going from a team with multiple great defenders (regardless of what some advanced stats say) to a team completely dependent on one player certainly seems to be an issue with a team's construction. No one forced them to make these exact moves to become so vulnerable. No one forced Pop to not take fliers on young wings for camp deals.Tough to say if the team was built wrong when the team's one-man defense was lost for the season in the preseason.
Obviously, I'm as sick over DJM going down as everyone else. But I also think there was more downside to his starting than folks want to admit. DeRozan and White don't fit together. I shudder to think how DeMar would have down with Murray, especially if that also meant Gay and Cun starting. Could be an offense as bad as 17-18
White came back from injury and yes was thrown into the starting pg lineup. He had a short leash from there. Belli has the longest leash of any Spurs player I have ever seen.
Why not bring in someone like Ty Lawson to run the point? Low risk. Also maybe someone like Corey Brewer and let Cunningham or Pointdexter go? Couldn't hurt.
I agree with mills DeRozan bertans gay la team play better and run...
If the front office really thought their shot at "contending" was putting all their eggs in the Dejounte Murray basket, then we need a change up top quicker than I thought.
Just wow.
I agree with the Marco take. He's trash and jacks up way too many shots and can't stay in front of anyone.
C'mon Mo, you know the answer. Those guys haven't gotten over themselves yet.
this is true
Great post Chinook. 100% agree and endorse. I also don’t want to be critical of Murray and this isn’t about criticizing him. It’s just really about the roster. People expect Murray to be the answer to everything, but he’d have to be a DPOY/MVP caliber player to fix this up. That’s unrealistic to expect. Even Kawhi didn’t play with a roster this challenged. His teams were much better and his Raptors team was already very good and got Danny Green to boot. Last season’s team had simply better support players than this team does (Murray himself being a support player). Murray would walk in to a very different situation this season than last year and that’s without even touching the tip of the iceberg of his fit next to Derozan.
I liked your your last paragraph. I have thought about trades and come up empty bc there’s a lot of areas to address and I think you really only should trade picks to improve when you are thinking of making a real run in the playoffs and have an area of deficiency that you can fix. If you find one guy that can put you over the top you pull the trigger. That’s a win now move, but to trade picks to improve a team that’s mediocre doesn’t make sense in hindsight. You put this thought into words more eloquently than I did but we think alike on that point. The current team has a few games to show they are worthy of more investing on.
Lastly, the West isn’t mediocre this year (sorry HarlemHeat37). If anything former juggernauts like the Spurs and Rockets are mediocre and the Jazz regressed for whatever reason, but the rest of the teams improved quite significantly. Only the Suns are truly tanking. Some teams got internal development, others finally got healthy, others added FA or really good draft picks. You have to bring effort every night. You can’t coast, you can’t take quarters or plays off, you get injuries you will fall behind.
I was spoiled but as the great coach Steve Kerr said after GSW stumbled into a losing skid. We have had a charmed existence and a dream run. This is the real NBA. That could easily apply to Spurs fan as well. We had a charmed existence and a dream and incredible long run, but now we are getting welcomed to the Real NBA...
Yeah. Like I have.
I think Walker will be eventually, I don't know if he'll spend a ton of time in Austin, especially if he starts tearing it up early. Also, re: Patty, he's been the spark many times this season. He's knocking down the 3 ball again, finishing in the paint, and making those hustle plays that Manu used to make, whether it's diving on the ground, taking charges, basically whatever it takes. Obviously having multiple guys like that will be a huge plus, so I'm hoping Walker when he gets in there can provide that spark too. But definitely wish more guys played with Patty's energy
, I would hire you to replace Pop... if I ruled the world. Those lineups are worth a good look. It is imperative that we find a starting lineup that can avoid digging itself into a double-digit hole to start every game.
thats like a thought I had tried to erase from memory. That was so much worse than the whole Bogans thing.
Chucky!!!
Pretty sure Walker is probably there basically to shake off rust and get back into something close to game shape.
Walker will definitely get throw into the fire this season. The Spurs are desperate enough to give a green rookie some run. He can't be any worse than what we're trotting out there now on a nightly basis.
It's amazing how in the toilet this team is when you take away Manu. Sure, a game like this would happen, even with Manu. But we were still winning the close games with him. Spurs can't beat the bad teams like they used to do (maybe because they are now one of the bad teams).
I think you would have seen Walker slowly get more and more playing time as hte season went along regardless.
Now its going to be a it and roll with him unless he is just getting embarrassed on a regular basis.
I fully expect him to be receiving 25-35 minutes a night regularly once he gets his legs under him.
Hopefully this coincides with Cunningham receiving nothing more than spot minutes (or just playing against the Pelicans) and a reduction in Marco's playing time (unless he removes his head from his ass).
I think most fans expected we'd overachieve a little having DDR and Aldridge on the team and some shooters around them. , I did.
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