Warriors: Todays NBA real discussion

[Benoit]

ing what.

What? They need to find a way to make scoring harder.

[FrostKing]

What? They need to find a way to make scoring harder.

Decrease the punishment for "hard fouls"

Just that alone would make a significant upswing

[lefty]

LMAO kukoc > durant

More clutch tbh
Better passer too

[Mr. Body]

What? They need to find a way to make scoring harder.

The idea that NBA ratings go up when scoring goes down is just clownshoes.

[UZER]

90s Bulls were more athletic than today's Warriors. You had a good argument til you reached that point. Kukoc & Rodman > Durant & Green. Ill take Harper, Jordan and Pippen over Curry, Klay and Andre

When I say athletic, I mean in all aspects. The handles KD has are far better than Kukoc. The handles Green has, are far better than Rodman. These guys have grown up playing against guys with the same style of handles and footwork. Have you seen the quick sidesteps guys take to create the separation? Have you seen how guys can shift from right to left while going down hill full speed, and then end it with a crazy euro step? If it happened back then, it was a one off. It happens multiple times every quarter of basketball now.

The big men in today’s game big men (PF and C) can dribble like guards. Have you seen the old clips of big men dribbling down the court? Just look at the way Barkley dribbled at full speed, and he was one of the best athletes on the court. He had to look down every half second to make he didn’t lose the ball.

The details of the game are on an entire different level. It’s easy to not see it because,like watching your kids grow, one day you realize they’re already a teenager. But if you put the skills of yesterday’s players game against today’s, they wouldn’t be able to stay in front of anyone with the handles, stepbacks, hesitation moves, that happen every time down the floor in today’s game.

[Arcadian]

NBA should deflate the basketball so it's harder to shoot. Historically speaking, ratings have an inverse relationship with scoring output. People really buy into defense in basketball when compared to other sports.

MLB is juicing the baseballs--higher ratings. NFL made touching the QB illegal--ratings skyrocket. Higher scoring in NBA-- ratings plummet

Interesting hypothesis. Are there any data to support that?

I would like for that to be the case, but...aren't ratings really good right now, and scoring output is high? And weren't ratings really bad in the late 90s/early 00s when scoring output was low?

[midnightpulp]

Nothing wrong with not liking today's game, you're en led to your opinion..nostalgia is a very strong feeling..

I have complaints about today's game, as well, but as Jeff Van Gundy(one of the faces of 90s basketball) said during the Portland/OKC game the other night, the level of skill today's players have reached is absurd..

Realistically, if you used the exact same style as the old days and brought the same players but changed their names, you guys would still be complaining about it it's just human nature to favor what you grew up watching(I've been watching since the early 2000s, but I'm in the minority that cringes when I look back at those games)

I disagree that the criticizing of anything modern vs. past comparisons is primarily fueled by nostalgia (there's also a form of "anti-nostalgia" that celebrates anything modern/new uncritically, which is kind of motivated by a try-hard iconoclasm in response to older generations telling younger ones how "good it was in my day!"). " Today's NBA" isn't wholly the fault of the players and league. As Van Gundy said, skill levels have improved, translating into the athletes catching up with the on-court dimensions. Making a 3 pointer isn't difficult anymore, but it's absurdly overvalued compared to all other 2 point shots aside from layups/dunks. Every sport/game has a potential exploitable tactic, and when athletes/coaching figure out what it is, they're going to abuse it. The end result is a more one-dimensional game, which the NBA has certainly become.

Where the league is at fault, though, is their wholesale endorsing of the product. They've done everything to neuter defense and increase pace to satisfy the children on twitter/social media, where the NBA's bread is buttered. This is obviously a smart business strategy. The NBA's core demo has always been the 12 to 25 year olds (the league also had a cartoonish/corny marketing strategy in the 90s). The majority of North American sports fans do grow out of being "hardcore" NBA fans, as you've experienced, as I've experienced, and as Lefty experienced .

I think as you grow older, you more appreciate build up and tension. Basketball lacks that, until the end game. It's also why the sport is star centric. People tune in to watch Curry or Harden drop 50 rather than a contest between the Warriors and Rockets, since, truth be told, basketball is uncompelling team sports drama (i.e. basketball lacks big game changing plays in the early and mid game. In football, for example, a pick six from the red zone in the 2nd quarter to turn a 14-7 game into a 21-0 game is a backbreaker. In MalariaTrot, a goal in the 30th minute to take a 2-0 lead basically shuts the door). Nothing in basketball is backbreaking until the final minutes of the 4th).

I don't mind having a sport like this, where you watch players rather than the game. Just wish it was more balanced so we can see different playstyles again (post-game, mid-post, mid-range, etc).

[midnightpulp]

Interesting hypothesis. Are there any data to support that?

I would like for that to be the case, but...aren't ratings really good right now, and scoring output is high? And weren't ratings really bad in the late 90s/early 00s when scoring output was low?

Ratings and interest were low during that period because of Jordan retiring. And honestly, not sure why fans think the NBA has "exploded" in ratings over the past few years. Regular season ratings actually reached a 20 year low in 2017 and have basically met past trends. You can also see how Jordan drove ratings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation..._on_television

That said, not a 1 to 1 comparison, either. Much more entertainment options today. Furthermore, I don't think the NBA really cares about tv ratings anymore compared to then. They care about social media relevance. And in that sphere, the NBA dominates every other sport in the US.

[FrostKing]

Ratings and interest were low during that period because of Jordan retiring. And honestly, not sure why fans think the NBA has "exploded" in ratings over the past few years. Regular season ratings actually reached a 20 year low in 2017 and have basically met past trends. You can also see how Jordan drove ratings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation..._on_television

That said, not a 1 to 1 comparison, either. Much more entertainment options today. Furthermore, I don't think the NBA really cares about tv ratings anymore compared to then. They care about social media relevance. And in that sphere, the NBA dominates every other sport in the US.

They probably get that false perception because ESPN and Twitter is intoxicated with NBA.

They listen to Rap and songs name drop NBA players and shoes.

[Arcadian]

Ratings and interest were low during that period because of Jordan retiring. And honestly, not sure why fans think the NBA has "exploded" in ratings over the past few years. Regular season ratings actually reached a 20 year low in 2017 and have basically met past trends. You can also see how Jordan drove ratings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation..._on_television

That said, not a 1 to 1 comparison, either. Much more entertainment options today. Furthermore, I don't think the NBA really cares about tv ratings anymore compared to then. They care about social media relevance. And in that sphere, the NBA dominates every other sport in the US.

I see. I figured my assumption was probably wrong, but I wonder what the correlation coefficient really is between average points per game and TV ratings (or another metric for overall business success).

I just can't shake the memory of people complaining about ratings during the 2003 Finals (Not that I cared at the time, as I was in Duncan bliss.)

[lefty]

.
CAPTAIN AMERICA WIELDS MJOLNIR AND SAYS AVENGERS ASSEMBLE

PROFESSOR HULK (WITH BANNER VOICE) PUTS ON A GAUNTLET MADE BY STARK

STARK CALLS ROCKET “RATCHET”

THOR IS FAT AND LOOKS LIKE A HOBO

WE SEE THE VALKYRIE
KORG AND MEEK ARE ALIVE

[MultiTroll]

Cool it somewhat with the *rough n tumble* 80s and 90s bit.
ic Johnson couldn't be touched going down the lane and Kreams two FTs to end Game 6 of the would-be Pistons Finals win was pretty weak. Technically a good call as is was a foul, but if you're spinning this rough n tumble then.....well here see the play and what freakin Pat Riley himself said about the call:

Pat Riley Admits '88 Lakers Benefited from Phantom Foul vs. Detroit Pistons

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2103545-pat-riley-admits-84-lakers-benefited-from-phantom-foul-vs-detroit-pistons

[midnightpulp]

I see. I figured my assumption was probably wrong, but I wonder what the correlation coefficient really is between average points per game and TV ratings (or another metric for overall business success).

I just can't shake the memory of people complaining about ratings during the 2003 Finals (Not that I cared at the time, as I was in Duncan bliss.)

2003 ratings disaster wasn't because of low scoring, it was because it featured the Nets and Spurs. NBA fans are primarily casual, and only tune in to watch mega-stars or shiny big market teams.

[lefty]

Cool it somewhat with the *rough n tumble* 80s and 90s bit.
ic Johnson couldn't be touched going down the lane and Kreams two FTs to end Game 6 of the would-be Pistons Finals win was pretty weak. Technically a good call as is was a foul, but if you're spinning this rough n tumble then.....well here see the play and what freakin Pat Riley himself said about the call:

Pat Riley Admits '88 Lakers Benefited from Phantom Foul vs. Detroit Pistons

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2103545-pat-riley-admits-84-lakers-benefited-from-phantom-foul-vs-detroit-pistons

Yeah officiating was already back then but it was still tougher

Bad example imo

[ambchang]

In game one of the Milwaukee series, Giannis stole the ball at half court, took a few dribbles, and took off just inside the free throw line with a throw down dunk-- that's essentially the same dunk that Dr J and MJ made famous and won them Dunk contests... but Giannis did it in a live game, while maintaining his dribble, barely exerting himself. Ridiculous.

drexler did it vs the lakers back in the day. He took off maybe a foot closer to the basket but had a cleaner dunk

[ambchang]

Nothing wrong with not liking today's game, you're en led to your opinion..nostalgia is a very strong feeling..

I have complaints about today's game, as well, but as Jeff Van Gundy(one of the faces of 90s basketball) said during the Portland/OKC game the other night, the level of skill today's players have reached is absurd..

Realistically, if you used the exact same style as the old days and brought the same players but changed their names, you guys would still be complaining about it it's just human nature to favor what you grew up watching(I've been watching since the early 2000s, but I'm in the minority that cringes when I look back at those games)

The change in the game is essentially 100% due to rule changes. It’s turning into a high skilled WNBA game.

[lefty]

drexler did it vs the lakers back in the day. He took off maybe a foot closer to the basket but had a cleaner dunk

The change in the game is essentially 100% due to rule changes. It’s turning into a high skilled WNBA game.

Facts

[midnightpulp]

drexler did it vs the lakers back in the day. He took off maybe a foot closer to the basket but had a cleaner dunk

Modern sports fans think today's athletes are superheroes. I still haven't seen a 7 footer as athletic as Robinson. Wilt was a goddamn monster, too. Skillsets have improved, though.

[HarlemHeat37]

The change in the game is essentially 100% due to rule changes. It’s turning into a high skilled WNBA game.

Those changes have been around since 2006(which you yourself have repeated here forever), the only major difference since then is the 3-point shooting, which was inevitable in basketball once smart people took over and realized that there was a huge inefficiency that wasn't being exploited..

They'll probably move the line back in a few years to combat it, which is all they can do(along with removing the corner 3, which has been suggested by analytics people),..

[midnightpulp]

Those changes have been around since 2006(which you yourself have repeated here forever), the only major difference since then is the 3-point shooting, which was inevitable in basketball once smart people took over and realized that there was a huge inefficiency that wasn't being exploited..

They'll probably move the line back in a few years to combat it, which is all they can do(along with removing the corner 3, which has been suggested by analytics people),..

We can hope, but I don't see it. What usually fuels rule changes are declining ratings/interest. NBA has happened on the perfect formula that is best compatible with social media highlight and celebrity culture. People want to see Curry sink 10 threes in a game. Less offensive flourish=less potential highlights to share on twitter. They showed their hand when they came up with that silly 14 second reset from an offensive board rule. Another change that further marginalizes defense and traditional bigs. They want the league to be a highlight factory for twitter.

[HarlemHeat37]

We can hope, but I don't see it. What usually fuels rule changes are declining ratings/interest. NBA has happened on the perfect formula that is best compatible with social media highlight and celebrity culture. People want to see Curry sink 10 threes in a game. Less offensive flourish=less potential highlights to share on twitter. They showed their hand when they came up with that silly 14 second reset from an offensive board rule. Another change that further marginalizes defense and traditional bigs. They want the league to a highlight factory for twitter.

You should check out Kirk Goldsberry's stuff, he has a new book coming out about how analytics helped make the NBA better, but then ended up killing the game..he has interesting ideas on how to fix it, etc..he's very anti-Houston Rockets style of basketball

[midnightpulp]

You should check out Kirk Goldsberry's stuff, he has a new book coming out about how analytics helped make the NBA better, but then ended up killing the game..he has interesting ideas on how to fix it, etc..he's very anti-Houston Rockets style of basketball

It's a fate coming to all sports. In any sport or game, there will always be a strategy/tactic that has greater expected value vs. others. In baseball, the art of starting pitching (i.e. starters routinely throwing 8 or 9 inning on 120 pitches) is just about dead, since analytics discovered that starters get hammered in their 3rd time through the lineup. So now the tactic is work your starter for 6ish innings and hand it off to the pen. It's made pitching less interesting, since to throw a complete game you have to pace yourself and tactically pitch to more contact, rather than just max out at 98 every pitch. Shifts informed by analytics have killed more all around hitting approaches. Hitters now try to always hit the ball in the air over the shift. A Tony Gwynn type hitter who made his living shooting groundballs through the 3rd baseman and SS probably doesn't work today. Analytics have also revealed sacrifice bunts and stolen bases (unless stolen at about a 75% success rate) to be -EV strategies.

NFL, the net positive strategy is obviously being more pass centric vs. the past belief that a 50/50 pass/run attack would be best.

I don't see changes coming to the NBA/NFL because it luckily happened that the most efficient strategies are also the most entertaining (to casuals). MLB does, however, need to implement change. The most efficient strats in baseball have eliminated more of what fans found exciting, stolen bases, hit-and-run, speed-and-contact. Manfred is on it (rule change coming that forces a reliever to face a min of 3 batters). He wants the pitch clock, has toyed with the idea of moving the mound back and raising the strike zone, but the players union is in' stubborn.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's a fate coming to all sports. In any sport or game, there will always be a strategy/tactic that has greater expected value vs. others. In baseball, the art of starting pitching (i.e. starters routinely throwing 8 or 9 inning on 120 pitches) is just about dead, since analytics discovered that starters get hammered in their 3rd time through the lineup. So now the tactic is work your starter for 6ish innings and hand it off to the pen. It's made pitching less interesting, since to throw a complete game you have to pace yourself and tactically pitch to more contact, rather than just max out at 98 every pitch. Shifts informed by analytics have killed more all around hitting approaches. Hitters now try to always hit the ball in the air over the shift. A Tony Gwynn type hitter who made his living shooting groundballs through the 3rd baseman and SS probably doesn't work today. Analytics have also revealed sacrifice bunts and stolen bases (unless stolen at about a 75% success rate) to be -EV strategies.

NFL, the net positive strategy is obviously being more pass centric vs. the past belief that a 50/50 pass/run attack would be best.

I don't see changes coming to the NBA/NFL because it luckily happened that the most efficient strategies are also the most entertaining (to casuals). MLB does, however, need to implement change. The most efficient strats in baseball have eliminated more of what fans found exciting, stolen bases, hit-and-run, speed-and-contact. Manfred is on it (rule change coming that forces a reliever to face a min of 3 batters). He wants the pitch clock, has toyed with the idea of moving the mound back and raising the strike zone, but the players union is in' stubborn.

MLB is an interesting one, it's probably seen the most changes to traditional values..I heard Mark Teixeira discussing it a few weeks ago, he said he wouldn't have been anywhere as good or made anywhere as much money if he played against today's shifts

[midnightpulp]

MLB is an interesting one, it's probably seen the most changes to traditional values..I heard Mark Teixeira discussing it a few weeks ago, he said he wouldn't have been anywhere as good or made anywhere as much money if he played against today's shifts

John Smoltz would like to see an "illegal defense" rule implemented. Players can have a certain zone they can position in, but it would eliminate the loading up you see on hitters like Joey Gallo. The argument is: Why don't hitters just bunt or go the other way. Easier said than done when you're facing 99mph and 94mph sliders. Pitching is just really overpowered right now. Trevor Bauer is refining his change-up delivery with state of the art high speed cameras by 2000ths of a second . It's just insane how mechanically good modern pitchers are. Hitters will always be behind in the arms race. Position players have to work on fielding, throwing, speed and strength training, and hitting, while pitchers can basically work on nothing but their craft. Hitters really need a boost through rule or equipment changes.

[Arcadian]

We can hope, but I don't see it. What usually fuels rule changes are declining ratings/interest. NBA has happened on the perfect formula that is best compatible with social media highlight and celebrity culture. People want to see Curry sink 10 threes in a game. Less offensive flourish=less potential highlights to share on twitter. They showed their hand when they came up with that silly 14 second reset from an offensive board rule. Another change that further marginalizes defense and traditional bigs. They want the league to be a highlight factory for twitter.

If they took away the corner 3 and/or move the line further back, there'd be more attacking the basket and more "sick dunks" to share on twitter. Don't casuals also find dunks entertaining? In the 90s, most of the highlights were dunks. I remember booting up NBA Live 98 as a kid and watching the opening video montage of dunks to heavy metal music, and being quite enamored.