OT: Rank these players All time

[FrostKing]

Lebron will fall into this group of players if he doesn't cash in with at-least 3 more les

[FkLA]

ST s on KG because its full of duncan/dirk fans tbh. the gap between garnett and duncan wasn't as big as we like to think, and KG's career was hampered by minnesota's ty rosters than anything. one of the GOAT two way players. he's criminally underrated here imo. a borderline point forward with multiple seasons averaging over 5 assists and even averaged 6. his game would also translate to today quite easily because of his ability to switch on defense. imagine him being a modern center. you also know that given his shooting ability, if he played today, he'd develop a decent 3 point shot as well

all the older bigs who had 2 point jump shots have extended their range to 3... pau/marc gasol, serge ibaka, brook lopez. would be silly to assume that KG woulnd't have as well

In the early-mid 2000s, the unquestioned top two PFs were always Timmy and KG. Even Webber, before the injuries, was more highly regarded than Dirk. After 2008, career wise, KG was light years ahead of Dirk. 2011 happens and suddenly Spurstalk wants to rewrite history and act like Dirk wasn't considered a soft choker for most of his career.

[endrity]

In the early-mid 2000s, the unquestioned top two PFs were always Timmy and KG. Even Webber, before the injuries, was more highly regarded than Dirk. After 2008, career wise, KG was light years ahead of Dirk. 2011 happens and suddenly Spurstalk wants to rewrite history and act like Dirk wasn't considered a soft choker for most of his career.

In the early 2000s, a young Dirk was whopping KG's older and more experienced ass in the playoffs. In the mid 2000s, Dirk was getting 3 straight All-NBA First Team selections while KG was not in the playoffs. Dirk was again a All-NBA first team selection in 09, and second in 2010 and 2011 as people were a bit more in love with the new shiny toy, KD, who Dirk whopped in the playoffs.

So yeah, if it wasn't for a very fortunate superteam scenario emerging in 08 for KG, it's pretty clear that Dirk's accomplishments a franchise player were quite superior.

[FrostKing]

In the early-mid 2000s, the unquestioned top two PFs were always Timmy and KG. Even Webber, before the injuries, was more highly regarded than Dirk. After 2008, career wise, KG was light years ahead of Dirk. 2011 happens and suddenly Spurstalk wants to rewrite history and act like Dirk wasn't considered a soft choker for most of his career.

KG had the more consistent career but Dirk higher ceiling.

I mean whose career would you personally prefer? Dirk is Dallas basketball and KG isn't even Paul Pierce in Boston

[FkLA]

In the early 2000s, a young Dirk was whopping KG's older and more experienced ass in the playoffs. In the mid 2000s, Dirk was getting 3 straight All-NBA First Team selections while KG was not in the playoffs. Dirk was again a All-NBA first team selection in 09, and second in 2010 and 2011 as people were a bit more in love with the new shiny toy, KD, who Dirk whopped in the playoffs.

So yeah, if it wasn't for a very fortunate superteam scenario emerging in 08 for KG, it's pretty clear that Dirk's accomplishments a franchise player were quite superior.

You're a homer. You only mention KG's teammates to disparage his '08 le but make no mention of his poor casts in Minny. He struggled for so long to get out of the first round because his best teammates were guys like Troy Hudson and Wally Sczerbiak. I can't think of many high end role players that he had either. I remember Trenton Hassell was supposed to be their Bowen but he was actually just a scrub. The one year he did have a solid cast with Cassell and Spreewell he reached the WCF.

It was always Timmy and KG to everyone other than Mavs homers. That's the truth.

[spurraider21]

You're a homer. You only mention KG's teammates to disparage his '08 le but make no mention of his poor casts in Minny. He struggled for so long to get out of the first round because his best teammates were guys like Troy Hudson and Wally Sczerbiak. I can't think of many high end role players that he had either. I remember Trenton Hassell was supposed to be their Bowen but he was actually just a scrub. The one year he did have a solid cast with Cassell and Spreewell he reached the WCF.

It was always Timmy and KG to everyone other than Mavs homers. That's the truth.

imagine having such a cast throughout your career that sprewell/cassell was considered his one chance to do anything

[endrity]

You're a homer. You only mention KG's teammates to disparage his '08 le but make no mention of his poor casts in Minny. He struggled for so long to get out of the first round because his best teammates were guys like Troy Hudson and Wally Sczerbiak. I can't think of many high end role players that he had either. I remember Trenton Hassell was supposed to be their Bowen but he was actually just a scrub. The one year he did have a solid cast with Cassell and Spreewell he reached the WCF.

It was always Timmy and KG to everyone other than Mavs homers. That's the truth.

It certainly was to many at the beginning of the 2000s because to many that is what a typical superstar looked like in the post-Jordan NBA.

And please go look at the roster that a 30 year old Dirk carried to the second round in 2009, and then tell me about bad teammates.

[spurraider21]

It certainly was to many at the beginning of the 2000s because to many that is what a typical superstar looked like in the post-Jordan NBA.

And please go look at the roster that a 30 year old Dirk carried to the second round in 2009, and then tell me about bad teammates.

dirk in the early 2000's had Finley/Nash, and shawn bradley who was always good defensive player. sprinkle in random years with nick van exel, antawn jamison.

for s sake the josh howard that dirk played with was better than the 33 year old TOSB version of sprewell who became KG's best teammate of his career in minnesota

their casts were not comparable at all. they both were 4 time all nba first teamers. dirk never sniffed an all defensive team while KG made 12 of them. its true that KG only won after going to the celtics to form the big 3, but dirk only won when he played on a team perfectly constructed to address his defensive deficiencies with chandler/marion/kidd/stevenson, and good bench players in terry/barea/peja. its true that dirk was a monster those playoffs, but he shot like 41% in the finals and the cast did pick up a lot of slack. that the best year of his career wasn't even during his prime tells you that the team around him was pretty impactful

[FrostKing]

[spurraider21]

dirk's 2011 run was pretty ing awesome, but at using that to rewrite his entire career

[FkLA]

dirk in the early 2000's had Finley/Nash, and shawn bradley who was always good defensive player. sprinkle in random years with nick van exel, antawn jamison.

for s sake the josh howard that dirk played with was better than the 33 year old TOSB version of sprewell who became KG's best teammate of his career in minnesota

their casts were not comparable at all. they both were 4 time all nba first teamers. dirk never sniffed an all defensive team while KG made 12 of them. its true that KG only won after going to the celtics to form the big 3, but dirk only won when he played on a team perfectly constructed to address his defensive deficiencies with chandler/marion/kidd/stevenson, and good bench players in terry/barea/peja. its true that dirk was a monster those playoffs, but he shot like 41% in the finals and the cast did pick up a lot of slack. that the best year of his career wasn't even during his prime tells you that the team around him was pretty impactful

Terry, Dampier, Stackhouse, Daniels, Antoine Walker, JJ Barea, Butler, etc

Far from superteams but also not comparable to guys like Rasho, Trent, Peeler, Jaric, Olowokandi, Blount, etc

That 2011 team is also underrated in the sense that it didn't have a 2nd guy that was a bonafide all-star (although JET stepped up big time) but it was full of former stars turned high end role players. I don't think it was comparable to Dream's or Timmy's runs as far as amount of load carried goes like Mavs fans like to claim.

[endrity]

dirk in the early 2000's had Finley/Nash, and shawn bradley who was always good defensive player. sprinkle in random years with nick van exel, antawn jamison.

for s sake the josh howard that dirk played with was better than the 33 year old TOSB version of sprewell who became KG's best teammate of his career in minnesota

their casts were not comparable at all. they both were 4 time all nba first teamers. dirk never sniffed an all defensive team while KG made 12 of them. its true that KG only won after going to the celtics to form the big 3, but dirk only won when he played on a team perfectly constructed to address his defensive deficiencies with chandler/marion/kidd/stevenson, and good bench players in terry/barea/peja. its true that dirk was a monster those playoffs, but he shot like 41% in the finals and the cast did pick up a lot of slack. that the best year of his career wasn't even during his prime tells you that the team around him was pretty impactful

KG also had an All-Star Wally Szerbiack in the early 2000s in his team, as well as Chauncey Billups who would become the go-to player for the Pistons after he left.

But let's concentrate on the le teams because this is what it comes down to. KG won after two other veterans elite scorers decided to sacrifice their paycheck to team up with him. The "perfectly" tailored team that Dirk required to win, against an arguably more difficult opposition, was really an athletic defensive center and some quite regular players around him (Kidd and Marion were far, far from their peak, Peja on his last legs, and JET who never made an All-Star team was the most dependable second scorer).

Essentially the team that Dirk required is much more easily assembled in the NBA that the team that KG required. You can get defensive, hustle players much more easily than you can get elite scorers - that is the skill of which there is a shortage in the market and that is why those players usually get max contracts. This is what it really comes down to when you build around a superstar: if he is an all-world scorer, everything is much easier.

If this were baseball or European soccer where you can stash all kinds of stars together without financial repercussions, than maybe KG becomes more valuable. But it's not what the NBA is or has been. It's a league where your franchise player needs to be an elite scorer, and if not it makes it more difficult to build a championship team. Dirk was that, along with Shaq, Timmy, and Kobe. KG was never in that picture. A healthy T-Mac and Yao probably overtake him as well.

And this is where I'll stop because KG v. Dirk arguments have been overdone here.

[FkLA]

KG also had an All-Star Wally Szerbiack in the early 2000s in his team, as well as Chauncey Billups who would become the go-to player for the Pistons after he left.

But let's concentrate on the le teams because this is what it comes down to. KG won after two other veterans elite scorers decided to sacrifice their paycheck to team up with him. The "perfectly" tailored team that Dirk required to win, against an arguably more difficult opposition, was really an athletic defensive center and some quite regular players around him (Kidd and Marion were far, far from their peak, Peja on his last legs, and JET who never made an All-Star team was the most dependable second scorer).

Essentially the team that Dirk required is much more easily assembled in the NBA that the team that KG required. You can get defensive, hustle players much more easily than you can get elite scorers - that is the skill of which there is a shortage in the market and that is why those players usually get max contracts. This is what it really comes down to when you build around a superstar: if he is an all-world scorer, everything is much easier.

If this were baseball or European soccer where you can stash all kinds of stars together without financial repercussions, than maybe KG becomes more valuable. But it's not what the NBA is or has been. It's a league where your franchise player needs to be an elite scorer, and if not it makes it more difficult to build a championship team. Dirk was that, along with Shaq, Timmy, and Kobe. KG was never in that picture. A healthy T-Mac and Yao probably overtake him as well.

And this is where I'll stop because KG v. Dirk arguments have been overdone here.

People have this dumb perception that because Pierce got the FMVP KG took a backseat to him offensively. In reality, he led the Celtics in scoring in those playoffs. He would've led them in the RS too if he had played comparable minutes to Pierce (KG led them in PPG per 36). All while being the DPOY.

Dirk was the better offensive player, obviously, but let's not act like KG was some slouch on that end. The gap between the two on defense was much much much bigger than the gap between them offensively.

[apalisoc_9]

People have this dumb perception that because Pierce got the FMVP KG took a backseat to him offensively. In reality, he led the Celtics in scoring in those playoffs. He would've led them in the RS too if he had played comparable minutes to Pierce (KG led them in PPG per 36). All while being the DPOY.

Dirk was the better offensive player, obviously, but let's not act like KG was some slouch on that end. The gap between the two on defense was much much much bigger than the gap between them offensively.

Dork was actually a decent defender in his prime

[FkLA]

Dork was actually a decent defender in his prime

Arguable. But even if true, KG was one of the best defensive players of all-time. Huge gap.

[endrity]

People have this dumb perception that because Pierce got the FMVP KG took a backseat to him offensively. In reality, he led the Celtics in scoring in those playoffs. He would've led them in the RS too if he had played comparable minutes to Pierce (KG led them in PPG per 36). All while being the DPOY.

Dirk was the better offensive player, obviously, but let's not act like KG was some slouch on that end. The gap between the two on defense was much much much bigger than the gap between them offensively.

Absolutely final comment: it matters little to none that KG's defensive advantage was larger than Dirk's offensive advantage. Zero, zilch, nada! This isn't a 50-50 proposition, no matter what many people like to believe. You don't select your superstars to play defense, you don't scout the draft for the next Bruce Bowen or Tony Allent. Defense is what your role players are there for! If you could coach a scheme where your superstar simply breathed for 24 seconds on defense, you take that every single possession! (it's why Kawhi is so great in my book, he carried the team offensively while guarding Giannis when he needed; and that is why Timmy is better than Dirk as well)

You spend the supermax for the player who can hit the shots that 99.9% of other players in the league can't! That is why by and large the teams that win rings are led by players who are unguardable when they get going. Great defensive teams, which is what you will see in the latter rounds, will take away the easy shots and will make you beat them with the toughest of shots - as an even better offensive player like Giannis learned the hard way this year. It is there that the highest level of offensive skill matters and truly makes a difference. It is essentially THE element that makes up a championship team.

KG was never close to that level offensively. I stand by my statement that if TMac and Yao had stayed healthy, they had the potential to overtake him as well. Their offensive games were easily more polished and refined than KG could ever dream.

[FkLA]

Absolutely final comment: it matter little to none that KG's defensive advantage was larger than Dirk's offensive advantage. Zero, zilch, nada! This isn't a 50-50 proposition, no matter what many people like to believe. You don't select your superstars to play defense, you don't scout the draft for the next Bruce Bowen or Tony Allent. Defense is what your role players are there for! If you could coach a scheme where your superstar simply breathed for 24 seconds on defense, you take that every single possession! (it's why Kawhi is so great in my book, he carried the team offensively while guarding Giannis when he needed; and that is why Timmy is better than Dirk as well)

You spend the supermax for the player who can hit the shots that 99.9% of other players in the league can't! That is why by and large the teams that win rings are led by players who are unguardable when they get going. Great defensive teams, which is what you will see in the latter rounds, will take away the easy shots and will make you beat them with the toughest of shots - as an even better offensive player like Giannis learned the hard way this year. It is there that the highest level of offensive skill matters and truly makes a difference. It is essentially THE element that makes up a championship team.

KG was never close to that level offensively. I stand by my statement that if TMac and Yao had stayed healthy, they had the potential to overtake him as well. Their offensive games were easily more polished and refined than KG could ever dream.

Yeah, nobody said it was 50-50. If I thought that, then I'd be arguing that Dirk doesn't even belong in the same sentence as KG because the gap ion defense s that big. The fact that I'm not should tell you that I don't value it as 50-50.

KG was like a 90 on offense/99 on defense. Dirk 95 on offense/60-70 on defense. I'm pretty sure most GMs would take KG. Would you take Cousins over Anthony Davis?

[spurraider21]

dirk was a below average or even poor defender for a vast majority of his career. lets not act like his legacy is that of an above average defender.

at their respective peaks, dirk was a marginally better scorer but KG was a better playmaker and passer. dirk never averaged 4 assists per game while KG had 6 consecutive seasons averaging 5 assists per game or more. garnett was a substantially better rebounder to boot

2011 happened and suddenly their entire histories are moot and dirk is untouchable

[apalisoc_9]

Crazy though. Kawhi barely has the longevetiy resume, but modt people on forums have started putting him on Top 15-20 levels.

One season of load management and a ring catapulted him.

[Capt Bringdown]

Robinson
Leonard
Barkley
Malone
Durant
Dirk
DWade
KG
Curry

[Neo.]

KG was like a 90 on offense/99 on defense. Dirk 95 on offense/60-70 on defense.

lmao kg a 90 on offense when his entire offense revolved around wide open mid-range jumpers and putbacks. he had almost no post game whatsoever, no consistent go-to move.

offensively he was basically david west with decent handles and good vision

very good, but certainly not a 90 if Dirk is a 95

[lefty]

Wow.

Curry is super underrated

Sad.

Not even top 50 imo

[FkLA]

lmao kg a 90 on offense when his entire offense revolved around wide open mid-range jumpers and putbacks. he had almost no post game whatsoever, no consistent go-to move.

offensively he was basically david west with decent handles and good vision

very good, but certainly not a 90 if Dirk is a 95

What a crock of .

His fadeaway wasn't Dirk's fadeaway and his postgame wasn't Duncan's postgame, but he had both those things in his arsenal. He also had a face up game and routinely beat bigmen off the dribble. He was a 22-24 PPG guy during his prime in Minny. Just lol at him being David West.

[Kawhitstorm]

Absolutely final comment: it matters little to none that KG's defensive advantage was larger than Dirk's offensive advantage. Zero, zilch, nada! This isn't a 50-50 proposition, no matter what many people like to believe. You don't select your superstars to play defense, you don't scout the draft for the next Bruce Bowen or Tony Allent. Defense is what your role players are there for! If you could coach a scheme where your superstar simply breathed for 24 seconds on defense, you take that every single possession! (it's why Kawhi is so great in my book, he carried the team offensively while guarding Giannis when he needed; and that is why Timmy is better than Dirk as well)

You spend the supermax for the player who can hit the shots that 99.9% of other players in the league can't! That is why by and large the teams that win rings are led by players who are unguardable when they get going. Great defensive teams, which is what you will see in the latter rounds, will take away the easy shots and will make you beat them with the toughest of shots - as an even better offensive player like Giannis learned the hard way this year. It is there that the highest level of offensive skill matters and truly makes a difference. It is essentially THE element that makes up a championship team.

KG was never close to that level offensively. I stand by my statement that if TMac and Yao had stayed healthy, they had the potential to overtake him as well. Their offensive games were easily more polished and refined than KG could ever dream.

KG in the modern era would have been a combination of Draymond/Anthony Davis.

[Arcadian]

ST s on KG because its full of duncan/dirk fans tbh. the gap between garnett and duncan wasn't as big as we like to think, and KG's career was hampered by minnesota's ty rosters than anything. one of the GOAT two way players. he's criminally underrated here imo. a borderline point forward with multiple seasons averaging over 5 assists and even averaged 6. his game would also translate to today quite easily because of his ability to switch on defense. imagine him being a modern center. you also know that given his shooting ability, if he played today, he'd develop a decent 3 point shot as well

all the older bigs who had 2 point jump shots have extended their range to 3... pau/marc gasol, serge ibaka, brook lopez. would be silly to assume that KG woulnd't have as well

I agree, Garnett is a top 20 player of all time. As a hardcore Duncan fan, I obviously disliked him - but at the same time I appreciated his contrasting style. He was a good "foil" for Duncan. And given that Duncan had a better career, there's no reason for Spurs fans to be insecure about it.