I think that's an unfairly extreme characterization.
But, tell me, what other country receives immigrants from practically every corner of the globe?
Then ask yourself why that is.
You equated American troops to Hussein's henchman. That is insulting.
Hasn't stopped you. Actually, the irony of being lectured by an Argentine about national pride is quite entertaining.Half of your problem as an American is thinking the US is heaven, and the rest of the world is filth. Could you be more self righteous??
The dream of economic stability and wealth I suppose. However, that does not mean american ideals are right and the rest should adhere to its principles. Again, I'm not talking about myself (just clarifying so that some idiots don't start claiming I'm Al-Quaeda or a NAZI or something) but isn't it the underlying premise of a democracy "a government for the people, by the people"?? (emphasis on "by the people") How is a cons ution enforced by a foreign power going to work??
The whole point of this thread is to create some kind of anti-America feelings. Many who post here are supportive of the American effort. The other side of the coin is that they are many on this forum who are anti-American. I see nothing else. They have been against the United States doing anything but sitting back and taking a licking, like Timex, and just keep on ticking. We deserve what we got in the WTC, because we have so much and we do nothing for others. I know it is all BS and so do others on this forum. Iraq is much better off now than before we invaded, and in many cases, for some, safer. I don't care whether you agree or disagree. That is my opinion and I will stick with it. Afghanistan and Iraq are only the beginning of cleaning out a den of terrorist. Iran is another enemy that we must and will face on down the line and again the same bunch that oppose the Iraq conflict will do the same then. Bush told everyone at the beginning this was not going to be an easy task, and it wont, now or in the foreseeable future. He ask for patience, he gets it from us who support him. He will not from those who oppose him. Many on this forum didn't like Bush simply because he won TWICE and he did win. He can do nothing that will please them. Look at the Dimm-o-craps in Washington, they have done nothing to get along, but scream bloody murder and how corrupt Bush's administration is. What is sad some people believe that crap. Joe Wilson and his wife are corrupt to the core, but look how many support them. Wilson has been caught in so many lies it stinks to high heaven and not one of the so called "main" stream press will report it. I support Bush, I support the war in Iraq and I support the USA. And I really don't care if anyone likes it or not. I am a conservative and proud of it. Are any of you damn Liberals and left wingers proud of what you believe? If so tell us what you believe and quit telling us how bad we are. State your beliefs!
Please clarify this statement, I wouldn't want to go off on you just because I may have missinterpreted a comment.
I'm sure the Shia and Kurds are pretty happy with the cons ution that was written.How is a cons ution enforced by a foreign power going to work??
I'm also sure that the presence of American forces is the only reason the Sunnis are giving the appearance of cooperating with the cons utional process.
Once we're gone, they move into open rebellion.
that's what I believe. Its all good on paper, but reality isn't that simple
No, you're wrong. I equated the people in charge of bombing supposed military targets with disregard as to the civilian casualties. Those are the ones I was refering to. I have no ill-will against American troops.
Notice that MaNuMaNiA criticized the Iraq war in part because he thought it hurt U.S. interests. Somebody who is anti-American would not make that criticism because he would be against U.S. interests anyway.The whole point of this thread is to create some kind of anti-America feelings.
That's also my criticism in a nuts . I think Bush miscalculated.
That's not the same as folks like DuncantoCWebb who are just reflexively anti-American.
^ exactly (you know outside of of the Spurs forum, i find i like you a lot more MM) americans feel that just because we love democracy it is the duty of the world to love democracy. We feel that because we have historically used violence in order to achieve democracy (I'm gonna et to that asinine civil war argument later down the flow) that every nation in the world ought to be willing to pay the same price, sometimes greater prices, in order to have it forced upon them.
This is the same argument used to justify killing 2 million vietnamese in bombing raids in vietnam, and Yonivore would have been the same person making this argument back in the day.
this is the same stupid argument used to justify the slaughter of about 250,000 to 1 million fillipinos in order to justify american imperialism, which we then thouht would make a better life for the fillipinos in the long run (the same going on today with different words)
this is the same argument used to justify giving guns to the contra death squads in Nicargaua, so that hundreds of thousands of civilians who had aboultely nothing, and had every reason to want to form a new government, could be slaughtered
and you know what? The effects never change, we always leave a place more ed up then it ever was before.
Look at it this way gentlemen, Saddam Hussein was senile and didn't control his government in the last years of his life (even the you cite says '88 and '91) so the current violence is far greater than anything saddam was going to do to his own people, and is not justified.
second, wikipedia, although sometimes nice to read, is a user created encylopedia that is often found to be written with false information on a wide variety of issues, (such as multiple articles on Kerry and Bush alike) in order to skew a readers beliefs on that subject. Therefore i dont belive the magnitude or the details until varified from another source.
lastly, the american civil war was fought between white people in order to free ensalved black people which the white people were entierly responsible for. Thus, those who were responsible for the genocide of balck people, bore the burden of freeing them.
By the same logic, are you saying the Iraqi people are responsible for the fact that they didnt choose the same governemnt we chose, and therefore just have to deal with the consequences that we give them due to our personal vandetta against their old form of government? BULL
second, although it pains me to say this, extra stout has provided this discussion with some very good anylasis, that really acentuates my original point, that just because we like democracy, doesnt mean that out actions are justified in iraq (i.e. killing 25,000 people)
Britain, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Ireland, Spain, Canada, Italy, Greece... the list is quite long. National pride is a great thing, but you are showing great ignorance and insularity if you think this is the only nation that immigrants aspire to and the only nation which accepts them.
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I pose a question to you RtoD.
What do you think of America the Country as it stands today?
Yes, there is much corruption, agreed.
But do we not also enjoy freedom?
What country would you rather live in than America? The land of the Free.
Now consider this.
Does this Freedom that we have today justify the slaughter of the thousands, perhaps millions of American Indians?
No, it does not. But what if our British Ancestors came here across the sea to help the Indians instead of slaughter them? What if our British Ancestors came here to destroy the Aztecs that were slaughtering all in their path. Thus liberating all the other peaceful tribes? What would you think of that scenario?
I know that's a dream that did not happen.
So lets ask this, Why were they slaughtered? American Insecurity.
Perhaps Insecurity plays a part in this war in Iraq today.
BUT, today, innocent Iraqi's are not the target.
Back then, ALL INDIANS WERE THE ENEMY. There were all to be exterminated.
America was WRONG THEN. WRONG IN THE WORST WAY.
BUT, have we learned as a country?
Yes.
No longer are the innocent the targets as well.
Sure, many innocent are dying and have died.
Many many more of the GUILTY are being destroyed.
I do not know if it is right. It is not for me to judge.
But I believe it is for a greater Good.
Just because you cannot see it, does not mean that it is not there.
wake up brother.
I'm having trouble seeing your point..I pose a question to you RtoD.
What do you think of America the Country as it stands today?
Yes, there is much corruption, agreed.
But do we not also enjoy freedom?
What country would you rather live in than America? The land of the Free.
Now consider this.
Does this Freedom that we have today justify the slaughter of the thousands, perhaps millions of American Indians?
No, it does not. But what if our British Ancestors came here across the sea to help the Indians instead of slaughter them? What if our British Ancestors came here to destroy the Aztecs that were slaughtering all in their path. Thus liberating all the other peaceful tribes? What would you think of that scenario?
I know that's a dream that did not happen.
So lets ask this, Why were they slaughtered? American Insecurity.
Perhaps Insecurity plays a part in this war in Iraq today.
BUT, today, innocent Iraqi's are not the target.
Back then, ALL INDIANS WERE THE ENEMY. There were all to be exterminated.
America was WRONG THEN. WRONG IN THE WORST WAY.
BUT, have we learned as a country?
Yes.
No longer are the innocent the targets as well.
Sure, many innocent are dying and have died.
Many many more of the GUILTY are being destroyed.
I do not know if it is right. It is not for me to judge.
But I believe it is for a greater Good.
Just because you cannot see it, does not mean that it is not there.
wake up brother.
I second this comment. I don't see how this thread is supposed to be anti-American. And I don't see why it always has to be "you're either with us or against us" and "if you don't support the war/Bush, you're anti-American". I thought part of being American is having the ability to express our own beliefs even if they run contrary to the company line. Otherwise, if we attempt to suppress such thought and oppress those who have them, then where is this "freedom" idea that we rattle like a saber if the face of people who don't support what we are doing?
I'm an American and glad to be so. I enjoy the freedoms I have but am not obligated to blindly follow the herd. I also think Bush miscalculated and believe whatever intentions he may have had, it hurt US interests and our relations with other governments that could assist us with what we are trying to accomplish.
Last edited by Notorious H.O.P.; 11-01-2005 at 04:16 PM.
What the ^?
are you telling me that i should wake up? you wake the up, it is so easy for you to coldly talk about the death of millions from your god damned easy chair, and rationalize away the death of more people than you could know in a lifetime, but you tell me to wake up?
i no what is going on, I undertand what we're doing, and it's . thats all
we're saying that ou governemnt rocks, and that thus we have the right to do whatever the it takes to replicate it anywhere we want to. we're worse than the musliums, they kill people because they believe that they have the right to spread islam, we kill people because we think that we have the right to spread a form of government? at least most of the musliums have the excuse of a sub standard education and years of brainwashing, what is our god damned excuse?
When in doubt, the go-to move.
I think it is quite clear.
Again, the US isn't responsible for all of those dead.
I just said that to piss him off.
R2D2 and Yonivore kind of cancel each other out.
no it isn't, spell it out for me please, I really would like to know what the irony is.
my friend, i only speak the truth. we are not worse than the muslims. but we are not better either. I agree, at the end of the day, thou shalt not kill.
But what of those that have plans to kill without remorse?
if you had the chance to destroy the men that flew the planes into the world trade center, pentagon, and into the earth of pennsylvania...would you do it?
or would you sit idly by and let it happen?
do you have the courage to destroy evil if you must, to save innocent lives?
I do. Read my posts again and again. Pray about it. You have David Robinson's name in your screenname, do him proud, and do as David would do. He would pray about it. He would not curse me.
Godbless you brother. I am showing you the truth. But I cannot force you to believe it.
I dont need to pray to know that what we are doing is wrong. I dont need to let a nebulous yard stick like the bible tell me how judge morality of this kind on this stage, when i know that the bible was inteded to tell me how to live as an individual, and never allows me to do anything to another individual because i think that my way of thinking is better ( dont bring up some damn murder example either marcus bryant, you no good and well what im talking about and they arent comparable)
Bull , you and i both know terrorists weren't killing people when the baath party was in power, so yes it is our fault
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