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At home, sure enough, my bad.
I thought I noticed some of the characteristics of JoeJam's writing style, good posts over there.
check the edits ... made some additional changes.
At home, sure enough, my bad.
I thought I noticed some of the characteristics of JoeJam's writing style, good posts over there.
Brown's definitely a top notch coach and I wouldn't try to diminish that.
On the other hand I'm not so sure Flip deserves the blame for not being able to take some temperamental hotheads farther than he did in the playoffs.
And as I've already stated, I understand that we've only played 3 games but I'm still going to make the most of our 3-0 and the Knicks 0-3.
Oh hey JJ, I bet you don't know who this is.
Oh hey JJ, I bet you don't know who this is.I'm probably gonna need a hint APABDENOUR POWER
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Posted November 06, 2005 09:26 AM
This will be a tough game, Sacramento is extremely dangerous, especially at home. Bonzi always goes crazy against us.
p.s. I thought I heard that we haven't beaten Sacramento on the road since '96?
Still have to put a bet on the Pistons. That streaks comiin' to a halt!
Yeah, there is indeed some sort of streak. I believe its 6 straight losses in Sacramento, but I'm not sure.
BTW, whats your name over at p.com?
Just put a spanking on the Kings in Arco. We were up 25 untill scrub time came. It was pretty strange to hear that place so silent, especially considering it was opening night.
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Last edited by FreshPrince22; 09-12-2011 at 02:09 PM.
Oh hey JJ, I bet you don't know who this is.
You're right. I don't have a clue. Too many members to pick from ...
Streaks Is Ovuh!!
Still at that 102 ppg, lookin' good!
(don't post much on the Piston's Board, I mainly go there and read the threads, it's a good board <judedaniel> )
With Brown's Knicks playing at GS tonight and the Pistons playing at Portland the day could very well end up with Flip's Pistons at 6-0 and Brown's Knicks at 0-5.
I do take satisfaction in this because Larry didn't leave us under the best of cir stances, taking 7 mil of Davidson's money for doin' nothin' and gettin' another 10 mil from the Knicks.
I love how Piston fan sees Flip for a few games and thinks there an expert. Before you think i'm a jaded, spurned flip fan gone bad, check my record. I've hated what flip does for years and called him overated. You DO realize that flip and larry both had player control, right? Larry brought in a "temperatal hothead", in your own words, Rasheed and rode that ass to the O'brian. Flip meanwhile brought in guys like Avery, Ebi, engineered the Joe Smith Fiasco and what not. Remember, McHale wanted defense and pounding the ball in the paint. Flip is supposed to be a PG genius. Lets see, What pg did he ever come away smelling like roses? FLIP was the one that drove Billups out of town. Billups wanted to start, wanted to stay and even wanted to take less money but Flip refused to demote a hobbled Brandon. Wanted to keep hudson bad enough to have an untradeable contract, ed up trading Ray allen for marbury. This is all on him, he's the guy that likes offense.
Wake the up, the reason why the wolves teams overachieced (they did) but couldn't get jack done in the playoffs is bc its a different ballgame. Zone D works nice and all in the reg. season but when the game gets longer, he gets outcoached. Watch during the playoffs when he's going against a good coach like Pop. You will start to cringe when he calls timeouts bc he sets up complicated plays that doesn't work. Its better to let his players play.
Good thing that Flip doesn't have player coach here in Detroit then, right? Joe Dumars did not let Larry Brown control personnel. He refused to acquire Eric Snow. And, you can think it was Larry Brown who brought Rasheed to Detroit, but when all you have to give up is Bobby Sura, Chucky Atkins, Zeljko Rebraca and a draft pick, any NBA GM would have done the same thing.
You can't mutually exclusively apply Flip's experiences in Minnesota and say the same things will happen in Detroit. People do learn from their mistakes, you know. By the way, Larry Brown never won a championship before coming to Detroit. Players make the difference.
Oh, and I read multiple articles that stated that Kevin McHale was just as much the decision-maker in not bringing back Chauncey Billups as was Flip Saunders. And, to blame the Joe Smith fiasco without giving any culpability to McHale is not being honest or realistic. Guess what, Minnesota still has Kevin McHale as a GM.
I don't like the zone looks, more than just using it intermittently as a change-of-pace looks. Flip has already stated he will only use the zones a few times to keep other teams off balanced. He has also stated he realizes the strength of these players will rely on their prowess of man-to-man defense.
I don't think Flip is an upgrade over Larry Brown. I don't think Flip is the perfect answer as coach. Personally, I wanted to see Terry Porter come in. But, we are not going to see all of the problems Minnesota had over the last decade, because 1.) player control is in Joe Dumars' hands, and 2.) the talent as a whole in this Pistons team is much greater than Minnesota ever had, and it's ultimately on the players to execute and win games.
Facts are facts, most GMS would NOT have done the Rasheed deal at that time. Are you blind? Rasheed was in the middle of his nutcase era. Its like second guessing T.O.'s trade and saying no other team would have done it then. Potentially tear apart a contender that relies on teamwork for a chance at a nutball who may or may not be around the next year? Good think Dumars isn't the GM of the tigers or ManRam would be there next year, huh? You don't think that Larry Brown had the say there? Larry Brown goes to the GM and says what he wants and convinces them to get it. Larry will soon have a say over Isiah and Isiah has one of the biggest ego's of GM's there is.
But for arguement sakes lets pretend there wasn't/isn't any coaching say in Detroit (you don't pay that much jack for a guy just to draw up screen and rolls) You don't think Flip is eventually going to play the type of players he wants to play? Again, look at the vacuum in MN since he left. Anthony Carter is getting big minutes and playing well even with a HEALTHY troy hudson as a backup.
Larry Brown didn't win a championship before that either. But theres a reason WHY larry brown was already a coaching legend. Popovich and Brown are two of the best coaches in the game, there was a connection. Larry's sixer team that went and robbed Shaq of a perfect record in the playoffs was CRAP. You have a problem when the Cookie Monster is your second leading scorer coming into the playoffs. That sixer team today IMO SHOULD be much better.
Its nice that you read some articles. I've also read articles saying the holocaust wasn't that bad, hitler was portrayed in a negative light and Black Monday was just a reason for people to feel bad about themselves.
I was a little more in tune with what happaned then your AP reports you read. KG's best bud was Joe and he wanted him back, McHale wasn't THAT big on him. Like i said before, McHale's approach to basketball is bang and block. Not a typicall backup 4 now is he? EVERYONE is to blame for that inclding the owner but the buck stops with Flip since he had player control.
McHale is just as hated so don't think he's getting a free pass. Are you going to hold it against me that i'm not a aloof homer like the piston fans that post here? I've been against Flip AND McHale for years. Like KG said recently, Glen trusts McHale and thats the bottom line.
Most GMs might not have traded for Rasheed, but you put them in the same position as Joe Dumars, I would bet nearly all of them would have. The Pistons gave up Bobby Sura, Chucky Atkins, Zeljko Rebraca, and a 1st round draft pick for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James. What GM would not have done that???? And, then if for some reason Rasheed turned out to really be that bad seed, he was an unrestricted free agent at the end of that year, and Joe Dumars would NOT have had to bring him back. Are YOU blind? How perfect of a trade was that? Come on.
Larry Brown also asked Joe Dumars to find a way to acquire Eric Snow and Vince Carter. Joe Dumars refused him. And, Joe Dumars will not relent to Flip Saunders either. As to the make-up of this team, it's in Joe Dumars' control. Dumars made it a point to let Larry Brown know that. I'm sure he will do the same to Flip Saunders. Dumars and the owner Bill Davidson have already shown that they are willing to fire GREAT and SUCCESSFUL coaches who don't accept how things will be done under Joe Dumars. You think if Dumars is willing to fire Larry Brown, he won't be willing to fire Flip if Flip tries to take too much control over personnel? Let's be real.
That was the first time you ever showered blame on Kevin McHale. Just as long as you can admit it wasn't all Flip's fault in Minnesota.
It's all fine and well. I'm not a Flip Saunders apologist. I didn't want him as the next Pistons coach. Firstly, I wanted Larry Brown to return. And, if not, I wanted Terry Porter. But, I'm also willing to allow him to prove himself as a coach with more than just a pre-season and five games. It just seems you are so bent in watching Flip fail out of bitterness from your experience with him as the Wolves coach. Hey, it's fine if he proves to be a bad choice. So what? I won't be following him if he coaches another team claiming he's going to suck with them too just because I was bitter at the job he did here in Detroit. But, that's just me ...
maybe Larry was the issue at the Olympics
maybe Larry was the issue at the Olympics
I honestly think he really mishandled that team.
Larry took the freakin clippers to the playoffs. Plus, he took the piss poor sixers and pacers to the finals. LB not being coach will wear off on Detroit and first bit of adversity they'll all begin to question flip. I really like Detroit and hope they make it to the finals but I got to go with the pacers as long as they can stay out of jail.
Fair post except for (IMO) what I highlighted. Teams go through adversity each year and I believe this group is;
1. Confident in Joe Dumar's decision to bring Flip in because he believes in Flip's Coaching skills. Joe's a good assesser of talent, regarding both players and coaches.
2. The starters are together for the 3rd year now and after having been World Champions and in the Finals in consecutive years they believe in themselves and rightly so.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Pacers didn't make to the Finals untill the year after Larry Brown left. And I wouldn't consider taking these teams in the east 3-5 years ago deep into the playoffs an achievment. The East was absolutely awful untill the last 2 years or so. I'd love to see him try to get that same Philly team to the Finals this year. It would easily be a 1st round exit.
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Last edited by FreshPrince22; 09-12-2011 at 02:10 PM.
at everyone attempting to evaluate Flip Saunders based on the regular season.
Flip Saunders doesn't know enough about defense and winning to put him above Larry Brown, whom I consider the second best coach in the league at this point, behind PJ but thats another matter.
Flip Saunders is a great regular season.
Give it up Marcus Bryant, you have to admit that everything that jochhejaam wrote makes sense and proves the point, but the Pistons would not be this good under Flip if they didn't have Brown coach them the two years before. Brown made them better players and defenders, Flip is bringing out their offensive talents. Larry put in the groundwork, Flip is just taking this team to the next level.
Who's following him? I'm at a spurs board discussing a common opponent for our teams. I'd say its a lot worse suddenly becoming a "fan" because a a guy is on your team. Lemme guess, Piston fan always admired Flip from afar, right?
As for your GMing evaluation, lots of people wouldn't have done that in certain cir stances. It worked out in your case but its not much differnt than the T.O. trade, Antoine and Jwill deal. Talent wise its a huge upgrade, but its also about as dumb as getting rid of Mike James for Rafer. Can you see the spurs, with a roster already le worthy, taking a risk on Spewell? Fact is fact, Rasheed was a nut at portland, He was tamer under Brown. And the problem ISN"T the future, it was the risk of blowing up that year and wasting a chance.
Q: Does Dumars do that if he has Doug Collins, Mike Montgomery, Bill Musselman or Sidney Lowe as a head coach? I don't even need to hear your answer. As for VC and Snow, VC revived that NJ franchise and even this season was a steal for them. Snow has always been a solid, solid player.
Aren't some of the same questions arising under the new regime in Det. as the were in MN? Your starters are getting too many minutes, not going deeep into the bench like most teams do this early. A playoff rotation less than ten games in?
Remember why KG was always tired late in the game towards the end of the year.
Flip was the reason why KG was injured last year.
"That was the first time you ever showered blame on Kevin McHale."
How long have you known me ?
The only thing taking the Pistons to the next level is being pissed off at LB.
Guy V. Lewis could coach them at this point.
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