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Where’s the “bend over” guy when you need him?
i watched the Austin Spurs game last night. That Bassey is a beast and shoulld be tried out on the big club asap. He's listed on one website as 6'9, the same as Barlow, but he looks a couple of inches taller and a very burly 230. But the proof is in the stats and he is killing it on rebounding and blocks per game. Besides some defensive prowess he can get his points by battling under the boards. He's had a little experience in the last couple of years and I think he knows how to play by using his big body and athleticism.
Where’s the “bend over” guy when you need him?
Does that mean Bassey is more Pterodactyl than T-Rex, as it were?
I don't think RAPTOR is stable yet, but according to this early release, Tre Jones is having an incredible defensive year. NBA.com's tracking backs that up, and Jones is one of the best on the team in terms of deflections, DFGs, charges draw, and loose balls recovered. I don't think the basic logic of this thread is wrong. Sochan is up there with Jones in a lot of categories, and Langford makes a positive appearance in a couple. But Vassell is theoretically the guy who best fits that model, and he's been a mixed bag. Johnson, who after Jones would be the most obvious guy to point to, is meh so far. That's actually an improvement over last year, but he's still ultimately a mixed bag where some stats love him and some despise him.
I think it's easy to see a defense like Toronto's and just assume that is paradigmatic. But the great Spurs' defenses from 2011-2017 weren't based on a bunch of long athletic guys. Their famed defensive duo was around league average in terms of explosiveness, though Green, Leonard and Duncan all have pretty good wingspans for their positions. Diaw was a competent positional defender, and Splitter was very good at multiple aspects. But we are talking about guys like Parker, Mills and Beli in the rotation. If you just listed off the physical data for the rosters, I'm not sure that I would pick 2014's Spurs over this year's iteration. I don't see them having a good defense as something particularly en bered by the measurements of the guys in the rotation.
Despite the cliche, defense is far more about physical tools than effort and the Spurs are lacking across the board.
The only players with the height to wingspan ratio to potentially be impactful are fringe players (Bates-Diop, Roby, Langford, Bassey) or projects (Barlow) and the only explosive athlete is a prospect/project (Wesley) and even he isn't really a vertical one.
Like virtually everything Craptors, their defense has generally been overrated.
No, the '11-'17 Spurs were only based on probably the greatest team defender in history anchoring them (who had a pterodactyl wingspan), one of the greatest wing defenders in history (ditto), two other excellent defenders with good positional size and two heady types with solid positional size.
That was also a different era where you could get away with a bunch of liabilities so long as you had the great anchor.
Tim's wingspan is impressive but not superlative. Literally the first defensive center I thought of (Steven Adams) had the same. Gorgui Dieng's wingspan is slightly shorter, but the height-wingspan difference is the same. Duncan was definitely one of the true driving forces behind those defenses during the early years, though. He was the best phonebooth defender in the league, and the team was able to get guys into that phone booth. But the difference between the before years and those great defensive years was the improved quality of their wings. Those wings carried over to the great defenses after Tim retired. Leonard was a pterodactyl, and Green was a bit above-average. But they didn't fit your mold. I'm wiling to accept 2011-2015 as the previous era. But after Golden State and the D'Antoni/Harden Rockets arrived, they were definitely in this era, and the Spurs were still a great defense. I think the game has changed so, to the point where Diaw would always be a starter over Splitter. But I don't believe that era of Spurs defense is very vulnerable to era. It was one of the most versatile units of all time. I don't disagree that guys like Beli might be more targeted, but I also remember teams targeting Parker to their own peril.
Jones is playing very good defense. We know Poeltl is a good defender, and Collins has been a good backup on that end. Sochan is a rookie and will get better but is already a good defender. Richardson, McDermott, Bates-Diop and Roby can be upgraded on that end, hopefully by some of those guys just starting to play better. That leaves Vassell and Johnson. I don't know that Keldon can do it physically, and he might be that guy who just has to hold on and make it up on the other end. Vassell, as I said, still grades out well in some metrics, but he might well be a case where his defense is suffering from his new role. Hopefully as he adjusts and the talent around him improves, he can be a two-way player. The most important aspect to their defensive issues is likely chemistry from guys being new, or in different roles from both a leadership and strategic perspective. There's hope that a young unit figures it out on that end. This is as much a part of playing a rebuilding roster than the sloppy offense.
6'10'' barefoot with a 7'5'' wingspan is superlative, as is 6'6'' barefoot with a 7'3'' wingspan and while neither was an explosive/freak athlete, they both put it to good use. The former with his shot blocking and overall rim protection as well as defensive rebounding and the latter with his on and off ball steals, deflections and defensive rebounding relative to position.
'15-'17 was the early portion of the era and suffice it to say, things have gotten more extreme since then in many ways.
All excuses. Defense isn't rocket science, of their preferred rotation only Sochan is new to it at this level, and he's advanced at least relative to experience.
The personnel is supposed to be good defensively yet is terrible across the board (20th in d-rebound% and turnover%, 26th in free throw %).
Defense is both physical attributes and effort. How you weight one or the other is where the science/art comes in.
Posted about this in another thread a few days ago, the Spurs starting lineup of Jak-Sochan-Keldon-Devin-Tre is locking down defensively. 52 minutes the DTRG is 103.7. Sample size is still relatively small but 52 minutes is enough to get some indication of where its going to be. The question is can that lineup score enough.
ORTG - 108.9
DRTG - 103.7
The problem is the next two most used lineups have a DRTG of around 120. What's weird is that both these lineups have 4 of the above 5 starters in them (Jak-Sochan-Keldon-Tre). One lineup is with Richardson in place of Vassell and the other with Branham in place of Vassell. Seems that Vassell in the SL is pretty important defensively.
5-man lineups above 50 minutes played.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/ad...ort=DEF_RATING
All Spurs lineups
https://www.nba.com/stats/team/16106...neups-advanced
Last edited by mystargtr34; 11-06-2022 at 10:25 PM.
Who's are these measurements? Tim and Kawhi? Great thread btw.
Speaking of dinos looks like OP’s step daddy did it again with Koloko (that SRP we sent them
in the Thad trade).
He had 6 bocks last night.
No, it's just solidly above average. Have you ever bothered to look this up? I feel like we specifically had this discussion years ago. The average difference been shoeless height and wingspan for NBA players is over six inches. Leonard's nine is exceptional, but as I pointed out, Tim is in line with guys like Adams and Dieng. Also, you're pushing for difference rather than overall length as is being shorter with the same wingspan is somehow more beneficial. It's not like of Kawhi were 6-10 like George he'd've been a worse defender.
As you noted yourself, on paper the team has the tools to be a good defensive team. That is to say, they aren't suffering from a lack of length or athleticism. The starters even have performed at that level despite guys like Roby, Collins and KBD are closer to your paradigm. It's much more likely that the Spurs can learn to be a good defense with the personnel they have than them improving by getting rid lf Johnson and Jones for folks with longer arms.
Most athletic rim runners have solid or better metrics and he was the obvious pick as a 1st round caliber prospect on a team in desperate need of a true C.
In other words, more luck.
7'5'' is still one of the bigger wingspans and Duncan has greater differential than Adams and Dieng.
I'm "pushing" for both.
No, I said they have a lot of players with a reputation for being good defenders, yet the team has vacillated between bad and terrible in recent years and it can no longer be blamed on physically limited designated shooter starting and playing significant minutes.
I know you like to dispute everything I say, but it's logical to conclude their lack of athleticism and length has played a part and likely significantly so.
Spurs just been getting burned by fast guards. Nobody on this team was able to guard Bones Hyland. That's all you need to know about the "defense"
As soon as the Spurs had players go down you knew we’d start losing. This team is like a house of cards. Can’t pull any out without the whole thing falling apart.
We flipped when Devin went down. His minutes restriction probably cost us a win, and losing Primo took away our only backup at point. It’s a team really built around three NBA starters, two veteran bench guys (one who can’t defend at all) an ok point guard, and not much else. We’re three hall of famers away from being the Lakers. I’m amazed we’ve won five games tbh.
Vassell did pretty well, but you don’t want to waste starter minutes guarding a bench guy.
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