To reiterate:
In this country there is a better than 95% chance you WILL NOT BE POOR if you do the following:
1. Graduate High School.
2. Don't get pregnant or married before you are 21.
3. Don't commit crimes.
4. Have a job.
This is based on a research study which from all appearances is unbiased.
I certainly don't want to judge the poor in this country, nor do I want to gloss over the extent of their plight. I do wonder, however, if they know any of this. Are they told that statistically there is a pretty good chance that it will turn our allright if they just follow the simple instructions above? Or are they told that they don't stand a chance of "making it" without help, that there is nothing they can do, that they are being held down?
What if the poor people in this country were let in on the secret that this study reveals?
Hey, NBADAN, you like conspiracies. This might be the biggest one of all. Who started it? (Here's a hint: you already suspect him of other conspiratorial misdeeds). Who stands to gain the most by it? Why are the media such willing patsies (or are they just ignorant)?
Pretty much dispels alot of conventional wisdom spouted on this board and throughout society.
Would anybody wish to discuss THAT?
^^^ People need to care enough to educate those ppl and in doing so, not put them down with insults. You are right about alot of those things about working, no crime and stuff like that. But who's to guide them and actually care? Not many ppl care to. I'm one that does care.
(most) Family's care
Some strangers care
Churches Care
I care
The government could give a damn.
I know those people are so dumb and they need smart people like us to care for them. Very similar to my pet.
I think it is a *bit* of an oversimplification of a complex problem.
We do our nation's children a lot of injustices when we just wave our arms and say, "Well kid, I'm sorry your parents make bad decisions, but because I blame them for it, I'm not going to spend my tax dollars to let you have a better shot at things than they did."
Yes, people make bad decisions all the time. The tragedy in all this is that the "blame the poor" meme makes it easier to turn your backs on them when they really do need help, and when helping them makes a difference for their children.
Spending money on the much reviled "en lement" programs like WIC or Medicaid are constantly assulted as encouraging dependence and waste, but when it comes down to it, I think the long term costs of NOT giving poor parents the chance to feed their kids properly or take them to see doctors for less expensive preventive treatments are much higher.
For all the parents who make "bad" decisions there are plenty who make "good" decisions and struggle. THOSE are the swimmers we have life preservers for. Some waste and fraud will be had from ANY system, but as a moral society, letting EVERYBODY drown because a some will abuse the lifepreservers is unconsciounable.
^^^ I don't think the study intended to make a commentary about the welfare state. It simply stated a finding about how to not be poor.
I believe there is a certain power base in our society (on both the left and the right, frankly), that is served by the exploitation of that class.
One side generates support by speaking of helping the downtrodden, the other side clambers on about the freeloaders in society dragging us all down.
I'm not saying it is a global belief or understanding, just saying there are certain factions on each side who use the situation to their political benefit.
Also, I don't see it as a "blame the poor" mentality.
I see it as a "hope for the poor" study.
It shows that limited wealth, and a brighter future, is not as elusive as some might have them believe.
Great post.
"as a moral society, letting EVERYBODY drown because a some will abuse the lifepreservers is unconsciounable."
Watch it, you sound like a humanistic European/Canadian, where social/cultural solidarity based on the admission that the lower edge of societies will ALWAYS be there, always has been, provides safety nets and has promoted medical care to a univeral right.
There's plenty of fraud, corruption, waste, cheating in EVERY govt program, even to the agricultaral and industrial sectors but you don't hear Repugs cutting farm subsidies, or corporate welfare programs, or tighter control of military contracting.
All the Repubs brought table these 5 years is all-out class warfare, with dubya looking after, extremely aggressively, only the very best-off Americans and corps.
I agree with all of that. See, we can reach common ground.
W's tax breaks were for every single person that paid income taxes, more if you sold a house (less than $500,000) or had children (and made less than the cutoff). There was still plenty of "progressivity" in there.
Unfortunately, he then signed the spending bills which drove us deeper into debt. The government is incompetent. I'm glad they don't have any more of my money.
I have some of my points to point out about your response.
1.You pointed out "we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater" argument on why we shouldn't cut and do away with social programs. That even though there is freeloading going around, there is a few who do use it properly. Nevertheless you and your lefty pals employ the same rhetoric to attack capital punishment.
2.Nobody has called for the withdrawal of medicare and welfare on this thread. So spare the guilt trip. What everyones point is, is that the mental condition and reliance of government for sustenance, lead to the tragedy in New Orleans. You tell me. If a tidal wave was about to come your way; would you insist on the federal govt to help you out, or would you take all measures to protect your life and flee on your own? Man, according to written history of the past two milleniums have relied on themselves for sustenance and safety. Only now does man use his recources on pleasures and vices, instead of builiding his own security for which each man is responsible. Barring children, Men and able women should always base their safety on themselves first and govt last after GOd and family. Children are the responsibility of man and woman. If both are not equipped with the necessary tools to protect their own child, then they by volition, should abstain from bringing in a doomed creature to this world. THe welfare program is horrible at this.In effect, the states incentives for bearing fatherless children have lead to the decline in societies sense of individuality and sustenance.
3.The le of the commentary was "what we learned from Katrina", not "what we regretted in helping the poor of Katrina". No one on this board wants to see the evacuees starve to death. Nevertheless we want to help them out as much as possible. What the author of the commentary and the supporters in this thread want is first and foremost to relieve their pain and suffering. After we have helped their situation, we don't want to revert them back to the same welfare state that was to blame for this tragedie. We want our fellow americans to learn from this experience and help themselves. To put to you easily. If you want to help the poor, you just don't give them fish, you teach them to fish.
4. People like you who demonize reformers for slashing program growths are the poor's worst offender. I give you credit for seeing fault in the system, but all you want to do is throw money at it. Money does not lift people from poverty, reformed minds do. If you want to reform the system to actually help out the poor, one needs to cut incentives that only encourage people to stay on the program rather than better themselves. I know of many people who opt for a spouse to stay unemployed becuase doing so will keep them on the gravy train. Many women out there are having illegitimate children for the sole purpose of recieving money from the government. THe system is nothing more than a liscense to live without consequences. Yes we need to fill the empty bellies and clothed the naked immediately. I appluad charity. But one needs to provide the right aid to eliminate the poverty instead of amplifying it.
I would say a welfare program mistake is reversible.Nevertheless you and your lefty pals employ the same rhetoric to attack capital punishment.
I agree with half of your post!
The problem with your viewpoint in contrast to all other viewpoints is this, Human depravity starts when one moves up the income braket. All other more credible philosopies acknowledge that Depravity is inherit in all of us, no matter what income they posses.
To you, all that is evil in the world is caused by evil country club republicans and christian conservatives. It wasn't satan of religous lore, freuds ego and id, or man's imperfect nature that sprung evil. According to you in a figurative sense, it was Halliburton who seduced eve into eating the apple and not the serpent. Your warped mentality that the rich are the root of all our problems borders on insanity. You seem to neglect any level of responsibilty existing in ourselves. We are powerless to our very own volition because the rich control our resources according to you.
What's sad is that if you were inside the towers on 911 you would of been more frightened even then of your chrisian conservative coworker's Mexican bakery's virgin mary calendar than the boeing flying into your office. When 2000 people died on that fateful day, many called for action against the terrorsit and their idealogy. You and your sympathizers, called for the US and it's conservative population to be removed from any say so in the political process.
In your twisted world; Osama bin Laden hunts down innocents because Susie homemaker voted republican and bakes muffins for the bible study class, People are carbombed because Pat Robertson called for the assasination of Hugo Chavez and there happens to be a Zionist prescence in the ME known as Israel, Zarqawi idiotically bombed the Jordanian Hotels because he was duped by Karl Rove, And if OBL dies of the bird flu by rare chance, it was because of Karl Rove and the reintroduction of Social Security reform inorder to take away the news coverage from VietRaq.
So what? How's that? You mean to tell me that the government would ask for the extra money it gave to it's recipients back? If someone cheats the program, or the goverment mishandles the program, then the only way to fix it would be to not do it again. Once it's been done, it's done with. Same with Capital Punishment. Once the person was found innocent, we should demand more qualifiers to send people to death row and make it harder. You don't abolish either one of them.
No one's dead with the welfare thing though.So what? How's that? You mean to tell me that the government would ask for the extra money it gave to it's recipients back? If someone cheats the program, or the goverment mishandles the program, then the only way to fix it would be to not do it again. Once it's been done, it's done with.
I thought the article was absolutely horrible and completely prejudice based.
That's why I posted it.
It was one of the worst articles I have ever seen.
How is finishing high school, getting a job, staying out of trouble with the law, and not having kids before you're financially ready being prejudiced?
We all saw the images of the poorest residents of New Orleans left helpless during Hurricane Katrina, and we were all told to think about the lessons we learned during that storm. Here’s one lesson I learned: Don’t be poor.
That's the only thing I would have found questionable, but I took it as "don't be poor and put yourself in a position where you have to rely on the government to help you out....because they won't/can't." In which case I thought he had to have ripped that off from Bill O'Reilly.
Last edited by SpursWoman; 11-30-2005 at 07:49 PM.
What's funny is that everyone refers to the "poor" like they are different or they have some type of affliction. "poor" people are no different than me or you.
you have no idea what being poor means obviously
Poor ppl are like me and you, with less.
I've come to the conclusion that some ppl just have no absolute idea whatsoever what it's like to be poor. None, none whatsoever. They just think they do.
I've never been poor, thank God. But I deal with poor people every day. I see families of four that are surviving (barely) on 12,000 a year and less. Some people that have no running water, or electricity. Some have outhouses instead of indoor plumbing. I don't know whose fault it is, but I'm not about to say poor people are no different than us. Every single day is a struggle for some people. Of course, twocents, probably thinks they deserve their fate.
Last edited by Oh, Gee!!; 11-30-2005 at 08:12 PM.
^^^ Thank you though for understanding. Many ppl don't and many ppl actually don't want to.
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