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Yeah, Tolbert played 15 minutes per game and shot nearly 50% from the floor (8-17), but had more fouls (12) than rebounds (5).
Tolbert was part of Nellie's goon squad that year.
Yeah, Tolbert played 15 minutes per game and shot nearly 50% from the floor (8-17), but had more fouls (12) than rebounds (5).
DRob got onto himself for getting to into games and losing his temper. And he didn't even lose it that much. He would rarely cuss, and I know for one I read somewhere how an undying Christian he is, he punishes himself for it.
He is just really a Godly man I guess. So nice of a guy it hurt him in the clutch clutch moments. He got a little help and did it. That 99' year he had like 20/10 I believe and earned that le.
He was just big ole cute soft teddy bear is all!
Couple of things,
Ducks Duncan didn't like Swimming he did it for his mum, when she dies he stopped. He loves basketball more than swimming.
Secondly Whottt knows what his on about, he may be the biggest D-rob homer of all time but his respect is well placed and he raises great points.
Duncan stopped swimming when Hurricane Hugo destroyed the local pool. I belive he didn't play basketball until he was around 16/17.Duncan didn't like Swimming he did it for his mum, when she dies he stopped. He loves basketball more than swimming.
But he dropped swimming with ease, coldly. He mainly was swimmimig because of his mom (who was a part of that) and because he was a compe or.
Than he strated to play basketball and guess what? He one of the best in that discipline. Starting at 14 of age.
Everybody knows the story ...
14 was it, I could of swore it was later than that.
I know for a fact that he gave it up when Hurricane Hugo destroyed his training pool, I've heard that on many different Tim Duncan features.
Whott, go ahead and dismiss the Spurs official website. But TRY to at least stick to the facts.
The year Drob was out, Sean was also injured for a significant part of the year;
I went to a clippers game to watch the Spurs that year, and they were both out.
thanks for playing.
What do you mean at least try to stick to the facts? What you are quoting from the Spurs official website is called fluff...not fact.
You want facts...find something on the Spurs official site that mentions the rape allegations against David Wingate.
The year Drob was out, Sean was also injured for a significant part of the year;
I went to a clippers game to watch the Spurs that year, and they were both out.
thanks for playing.
Thanks for playing?
There is nothing worse than a tool who doesn't realize he is a tool...
Here are your facts...why don't you take a look at what Drob did in the 93-94 season on a team WITHOUT AJ and Sean Elliott...what was the team record, where did they finish in the division, and who eliminated them from the playoffs...
Then you can ing tell me how much AJ and Sean brought to the team in those days...come to think of it..why don't you look at what they did on teams without David Robinson...then tell me who was more responsible for whose numbers.
And as I said earlier...why don't you go look at the Spurs record without Drob in the lineup-during Drob's prime...go ahead and exclude the 96-97 season by all means...then tell me how in the you can make any sort of claim that those teams minus Drob would have been anywhere near making the playoffs...I want to see that evidence...I want to see those facts....but more importantly, I want you to see them, so you can realize the enormity of what you don't know, and how badly you fail to realize the extreme degree to which David Robinson carried this franchise, and kept it out of the toilet...AJ, Vinny, and Sean be damned. Then after you do all of that, come and talk to me and I'll help you get that horse back in front of the cart...
Last edited by whottt; 11-27-2005 at 01:57 PM.
The Huracaine destroyed almost everything there. And the fact is the swimming pool with the olympic size was too far and Tiimy doesn't want to train in the ocean because of the Sharks
But if you are good at something and you love it you would definately find a way to train.
He just gave up. This wan't the same without mom.
and then Lawery, Oden, and so on
I hate to get back into one of these Robinson discussions, especially when Obstructed_view isn't there to prove me wrong, but I've heard this kind of critique for years, and I just don't understand it.
I know David's a Christian or whatever, but what do you think was going through his mind? "I love Hakeem so much that I want him to do well so I won't play as hard and let him win it"? Or "I just love people too much to want them to fail, so I'll fail instead and let them succeed"?
I mean, how do you get hurt in clutch moments by being too nice of a guy? The only way that makes sense is if you explain his "choking" or whatever as a consequence of wanting to sacrifice parts of himrself to help others. If you levy that kind of complaint, you would have to admit that Robinson wasn't trying to win, he was trying to let his opponents win. I just don't believe that was the case.
What makes more sense to me is that Robinsons just didn't care as much as some of these other guys. That has nothing to do with him being a nice guy or a Chrisitian or whatever. It has to do with him not placing as much importance in a silly game as his peers. It has to do with him having other things in his life that fulfill him, things outside basketball that confirm his self worth. Basketball just wasn't the most important thing in the world to him like it was to MJ or Larry or Magic or anyone else who can't function in a competent capacity outside the game. Sure, this makes Robinson less of a basketball player, but it also makes him more of a man.
But even this explanation doesn't do it for me. I remember the post game interview with Robinson after the game 6 loss to the Rockets. Obviously dejected and heart-broken, he said "I haven't felt anything like this since I've been in sports." I think Robinson did care...he cared a whole lot. So how do you explain his repeated post-season failures? This question has a larger scope than just David Robinson in the '90s...it applies to Keving Garnett, Wilt Chamberlain, and Oscar Robertson, among many others. Why couldn't any of these amazing players, some of the best to ever play the game, win without help? Why did they fold in the face of adversity time after time?
P.S. I can already anticipate people arguing with me about Wilt and Big O, so here's why they were failures in the same way DRob was:
K.G., considered one of the best PFs of all time, has only advanced past the first round of the playoffs once in his 11 year career, even though his regular season stats have been consistently dominant. History of choking in the clutch playoff games.
Robertson's only le was with Milwaukee in '71 (his eleventh year in the league). He was the second leading scorer on the team (19.4 ppg). The leading scorer? Kareem Abdul-Jabar (31.7). All the teams that he led in the sixties either missed the playoffs or were bounced out in the first or second round by the Celtics or Sixers.
When Wilt won the le in '67, there were two other players on the team who were Top 50 of All Time (Hal Greer and Billy Cunningham). Also, Red Auerbach had retired the previous year, and Bill Russell was the Celtic's coach when they lost to Philly in the ECF. That '67 Sixers team was one of the top 5 in history, and they would have won the le even if I had been their starting center. The '72 Lakers were even more stacked, and Wilt was the fourth option on that team, behind West, Goodrich, and Jim McMillian.
Whatt, reduce the level of bile and increase inteligability; its a trade-off, trust me.
David had Rodman the year in question (93-4), who changed the team into a defensive monster (2nd best defense ppg allowed), along with the best offensive rebounding team in the league. His rebounding freed david to score more, allowing him to get the scoring le. I would say his contribution that year was pretty impressive, and a big part of their success. Rodman was named to all-defensive teams and so on... Rodman got 17! rpg that year. The scoring on that team was weaker than on the future spurs teams, true. I wont deny that was an offensively weaker team than any Tim has had.
David went from 55 wins (without sean and aj) to 62 wins (next season with them), so I think thats pretty significantly in my favor.
BTW, I figured out your thought process: Make an argument that you figure no one will look up; get faced with the facts that contradict it; make a different arguement and belch out bad language and jokes to distract from the slide of hand; repeat.
Jordan had Pippen.
Magic had Worthy/Kareem
Kareem had Magic/Robertson
Malone had Dr.J and Bobby Jones, and ... well, a lot.
Wilt had West
Wilt had the whole freaking 6ers
Hakeem had Drexler / a whole team of shooters built around him.
Duncan had Robinson/Manu/Parker
Shaq had Kobe
Robinson had Terry mings, Rod Strickland, Dennis Rodman, Sean Elliott, Avery Johnson, Bob Hill/Tark as coach. I mean, it's not even that hard to see, the Spurs didn't underachieve in the playoffs, they always overachieve in the regular season. In the playoffs, when a team has days and days to draw up offenses and defenses, the opposition's weaknesses are going to be exposed quite easily, and trust me, the Spurs of those days have very very notable weaknesses that could be easily exploited. They include:
Lack of perimeter shooting.
Zero play-makers (Remeber Lloyd Daniels as the saviour? Haha!)
Weak rebounding outside of Robinson. (JR Reid? Charles Smith? Please!)
No offensive sets (I am talking about Lucas, who just lets everybody freelance)
Besides, look at how Malone can't win a championship even with Stockton, and later Shaq, Kobe and Payton. See how Barkley never won one with Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek, how Ewing never won one with Starks and Oakley. Winning a championship isn't that easy.
*snicker*
David had Rodman the year in question (93-4), who changed the team into a defensive monster (2nd best defense ppg allowed), along with the best offensive rebounding team in the league. His rebounding freed david to score more, allowing him to get the scoring le. I would say his contribution that year was pretty impressive, and a big part of their success. Rodman was named to all-defensive teams and so on... Rodman got 17! rpg that year. The scoring on that team was weaker than on the future spurs teams, true. I wont deny that was an offensively weaker team than any Tim has had.
Ok so Rodman allowed Drob to get the scoring le...to be the first C in about 20 years to win one in fact...Did Rodman also also DRob to lead the team in assists, steals, and blocks etc?
, he never had that kind of impact for Bill Wennington or Bill Lambeeir...
Hey...after the Spurs got rid of Rodman who lead the NBA in total rebounds that year?
Let me make sure I understand, your "dumb " POV...when the Spurs were good without AJ and Sean it was because of Rodman, this cons utes a talented team to you, a team good enough to win a le...When they were good without Rodman it was because of AJ and Sean...Drob is just basically this piece of that was given every thing he needed to win a le and was just too much of a pussy to do it...
You are ing dumbass if that is what you think...you are dumbass if you think Avery Johnson was a talented PG, you are a dumbass if you think Vinny D was a championship caliber 2 guard, and you are a dumbass if you think having Dennis Rodman and David Robinson, surrounded by absolute utter scrub , consitutues the Spurs surrounding him with enough talent to win a ing le, or even win 55 games.
Do you deserve to be talked to this way? Why yes you do...Why? You seem to be able to type well enough, so obviously you aren't as re ed as you dumb ing POV on basketball would indicate...so yeah I see no reason to be sympathetic or nice to someone who deliberately choses to be a dumbass when they have other options and they are getting pounded over they numb ing skull with the absolute and utter truth.
7 wins does not a championship make...David went from 55 wins (without sean and aj) to 62 wins (next season with them), so I think thats pretty significantly in my favor.
Using your logic, a team with the immortal and incredibly gifted Avery Johnson, balling Sean Elliott, and godlike, I can make a C a scoring champion, Dennis Rodman, ought to be able to win a le all by themselves, even if they have to drag that pussy pice of Drob, kicking and screaming along with them.
You haven't figured squat...my logic is simple...know the truth, know you are right, and if you make points and you have some dumbass refusing to acknowledge simple facts that take nothing more than a little common sense to understand, talk to them like the stupic they are chosing to be.BTW, I figured out your thought process: Make an argument that you figure no one will look up; get faced with the facts that contradict it; make a different arguement and belch out bad language and jokes to distract from the slide of hand; repeat.
So what's your spin on the 91-92 season?
It's too difficult for you to go to basketball reference and see what the Spurs record was without Drob in the lineup during his prime? Live in ignorance then. I have already heard your arguments and checked your facts long ago...years ago. You are the one chosing to not investigate mine...a shame really, perhaps the additional fact checking is part of what lead me to form the opinion that I have....
The truth is simple...
David Robinson never had the talent to win a le, given the talent on the other elite teams in the NBA, except for maybe his first 2 years in the NBA. I guess you could say the 94-95 team had the talent to do it...provided they could beat the defending champions, who incidentally, no one else beat either...Might have been helpful if Sean hadn't ing choked the game winning FT's in game 1...might have been helpful if AJ hadn't gotten butt ed by Sam Cassell for 30 points...and yes, it just might have been helpful if Drob hadn't been expected to shut down Hakeem and carry the offense against a double team, all the while staying out of foul trouble...IOW, it might have been nice if the Spurs had something, anything, going for them other than David Robinson, unfortunately, they really didn't...and sadly, way too many Spursfans are just too ing stupid to realize it.
Yes, when you can't beat my take, go ahead and turn it into a strawman so you can feel like ARE beating something resembling an arguement.
I don't recollect saying David was any of the things you remarked, such as a pussy, a piece of , or so on. I never said he was anything other than an amazing athelete, a good person and my favorite Spur, certainly the reason I started watching the Spurs out of HS (he first year in the NBA, in fact).
Nevertheless, none of your attempts to distract take from my original arguement; David had plenty of talent around him. Sean was an all-star, he had an all-nba defender in Rodman the front court with him, AJ shot over 50% one year and handed out 8 assists. David had good 3 pt shooters in Person, Dale Davis and Sean.
Sure, some of them failed to come through in the playoffs. But great players are sometimes predicated partly on their partners, and somehow are still asked to take responsability for the team's failures, it is part of the burden of greatness. Jordan never said, "Well, I let Paxton take that last shot, and he just didnt' come though when it counted. I guess I didn't have enough talent around me."
I hate to repeat myself, but I already noted that Sean missed most of that season, too. And they had shipped off Rodman by that time, IIRC. We were running an old Domonique in there, and AJ had no one else to pass to. Lastly, I don't, and never did, deny David's impact during the regular season. He holds the 2nd record for best turnaround in a season his rookie year (Duncan's return has the best, but its not fair b/c david came back that year too.)it's too difficult for you to go to basketball reference and see what the Spurs record was without Drob in the lineup during his prime? Live in ignorance then. I have already heard your arguments and checked your facts long ago...years ago. You are the one chosing to not investigate mine...a shame really, perhaps the additional fact checking is part of what lead me to form the opinion that I have....
Hakeem had an aging Drexler who was good but no longer at his peak. It was Hakeem who made incredible, off-balance fade-aways that David could NOT stop. David was double-teamed, but he also had plenty of chances one-on-one, and could not match his production.
And no excuses, your bad at ude is worse than rude, it lacks class.
Beat your take? What, giving credit for sucess to the revolving cast instead of the man most responsible? Claiming that the Spurs would have been a playoff team without David Robinson? You are wrong. To be a champion you have to have a playoff caliber team without the best player...and the Spurs never had that without David Robinson. In 91-92, that team still had the core of the best teams Drob played on...Willie Anderson, Terry mings, Sean Elliott...
What happened when Drob got injured for the last 14 games? 5-9,
The fewest wins of the Drob era. And those 5 wins were the pinnacle of those Spurs without DRob. I believe they were winless in every other game he missed in every other season of his prime.
Yes Drob got let down by his teamates...Robert Horry hits game winners for Shaq and Hakeem...and Duncan...Rod Strickland makes a no look pass to the goal post...Sean Elliott misses two game winning FT's.
You can subtract all the guys DRob played with...and they all were at one point or another...and the Spurs never won fewer than 49 games...they never got swept, they never finished lower than second in the division, regardless of the case, when he joined the team it set an NBA record for the greatest single season turn around in NBA history...when he got inured it set the record for the biggest negative single season turn around in NBA history...
He did whatever his team needed to win, scoring, defending, rebounding, he never complained and for the first 5 years of his career he was statistically the best player in the NBA in terms of helping his team win.
And what is his reward for being dutybound and showing up to work every night and carrying teams better than any of those so called heart of a champion guys? He gets called soft, people say he didn't want to win...
It's just crap. Drob was a one of a kind player and talent, and he worked as hard on the court night in and night out as anyone...including guys that are just barely hanging on to careers.
Nah DRob is an amazing man, and basketball player, and frankly he was wasted on some very unappreciative and unknowledgable fans here in SA. I can forgive ESPN for making the comments they made...after all, they didn't see Drob as much as the people of SA did...but I don't see how anyone can claim that Drob was the reason those Spurs teams didn't win les...he was the only reason they were even in the playoffs, and all you have to do is look at the games and years when he was subtracted to see the impact he had on his teams.
...look at what he did in College.
Your loss, not mine.
100% WITHOUT A DOUBT RIGHT ON !!
I love how people always like to point out the '95 playoffs against the Rockets, and say how Hakeem dominated D'Rob. Take nothing away from Hakeem, because he was great in the playoffs, but Dave have to cover him 1-1 whereas D'Rob was doubled the entire series because Houston knew there was not much in the way of talent after him and Elliot.
Robinson was a freak of an athlete.
I don't think you can look at the regular season accomplishments of guys like Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, and Sean Elliott and conclude from those numbers that they comprised even a good supporting cast at playoff time -- particularly in the mid 90's.
Elliott was the closest thing to a legitimate running mate that David had between a pre-injury Terry mings and Tim Duncan. But Elliott's game was good, not great. He was a guy who could score a lot (sometimes) as a complimentary piece, but Sean wasn't the type of guy who could take over a game and dominate by imposing his will on other teams. In the mid-90's, Elliott was at his peak, but he didn't have the sheer force of presence to take over games when teams tried to take David away.
I don't think AJ's regular season numbers in the mid 90's mean a great deal. AJ shot a good percentage during those regular seasons, but that was a function of his playing off of David and the difficulty that teams had in defending David in the context of regular season games. AJ's regular season shooting percentages look good, but they were the product of lots of easy layups created by the Spurs pick and roll offense. In the playoffs, teams in the mid 90's were repeatedly able to exploit the fact that AJ's game was very, very limited. Teams were able to push AJ to his right hand on his drives, at a point when Avery struggled to finish with his right hand, and were willing to concede jumpers from 15 feet and out to AJ because they knew that he wasn't going to hit a good percentage of those shots.
Think about it -- part of what made Avery's game-winning shot in 1999 so remarkable is the fact that he actually hit a jump shot from more than 15 feet. Even in 1999, teams would concede jumpers to Avery because he was never a great jump shooter. To say that he was some sort of remarkable shooter in 1995 or 1996 and that he was capable of making defenses give up their doubles on Robinson is a complete fiction.
I think there are fuzzy memories, glazed by what happened in 1999, about the talent on the Spurs teams of the mid-90's. Other than David, the most important piece of those teams was Dennis Rodman, who was significant in the playoff mostly because his offensive rebounding gave the Spurs opportunities to attack defenses that were out of position and unable to implement game plans to stop David. Rodman was far from being an offensive threat that teams had to account for in half-court sets, which allowed opponents to easily bring a second big to double David in the post. You can discount the Rodman distractions if you want, but from a basketball standpoint, Rodman's decisions to jack up random 3 pointers in Game 2 of the 1995 WCF or his decisions to play selfishly at other points in time adversely affected David Robinson in a direct fashion because it took away the possibility that the Spurs could take advantage of scramble situations and get David more heavily involved.
Ultimately, this discussion comes down to 1 series (maybe 2) in which the Spurs failed. Mostly, the discussion is about why the Robinson-led Spurs couldn't put down Houston in 1995, while the Duncan-led Spurs have gone 3 for 4 in West Finals. I think the truth lies in the supporting casts and it's amazingly difficult to argue that David's supporting cast was ever better than the talent on the teams that defeated them.
Take 1995 and 1996 for instance. Take a step back to objectivity and ask yourself who would you take in each of the following comparisons:
1995:
Avery Johnson/Kenny Smith
Vinny Del Negro/Clyde Drexler
Sean Elliott/Mario Elie
Dennis Rodman/Robert Horry
David Robinson/Hakeem Olajuwon
Chuck Person/Sam Cassell
1996:
Avery Johnson/John Stockton
Vinny Del Negro/Jeff Hornacek
Sean Elliott/Bryan Russell
Charles Smith or Will Perdue/Karl Malone
David Robinson/Greg Ostertag or Antoine Carr or Felton Spencer
Chuck Person/Chris Morris
Those Spurs teams were built for regular season play and racked up gaudy regular season numbers, but without a second star on the roster, and without consistent threats at other positions, they weren't built to defeat teams with those characteristics. The composition of those Spurs' rosters made it easy for teams to focus their defenses on David, which made it easier for them to make David less effective in a playoff context than he had been in the regular season. And when you could limit David Robinson, it was fairly easy to defeat those Spurs teams.
Absolutely 100% not. The whole 'not having a dominant low post game' is not overstated one iota.
Let's look at 6 contemporary excellent superstar players:
David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kevin Garnett, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dirk Nowitzki
What do Duncan, O'Neal, and Olajuwon have in common? All 3 have won multiple les as #1 options. All 3 have dominant post games. All 3 maintain or exceed their regular season #'s in the postseason, particularly Olajuwon.
What do Robinson and KG and Dirk have in common? Quite a bit actually. The similarities between Robinson and Hakeem and KG and Duncan are just uncanny. Neither Robinson nor KG enjoyed much playoff success as #1 options. Robinson got to the WCF once, same for KG. Both had well rounded games, but weren't post scorers. KG's #'s are similar to Duncan but is he as good? no. Same for DRob vs. Hakeem.
It's real simple, really. In the playoffs, things slow down pacewise and scoringwise, opportunities for cheap buckets which Robinson lives off of in the regular season decline. So much of Robinson's game was about his athleticism and beating bigs down the court and scoring in transition. These hoops arent there in the postseason. The postseason game is so much more about half court.
In the halfcourt, if you have a hakeem or duncan with about 6-7 postmoves, they can always get off a high % shot. Same with O'Neal with his brute force. In the halfcourt sets Robinson's only real options are beat you with the face up jumper which was very good, but not lethal or drive to the hoop. That's why you see Robinson's and KG's #'s dip so much in the postseason. It's really a different game after the reg season.
The emphasis on half court basketball in the postseason is also why teams like the Mavericks and Suns who rely so much on transition based games in the regular season just don't win les. Same for the old Warriors and Suns teams, although the Suns with Barkley did have a post presence.
It's completely naive to say that a player's performance is completely based on his teammates and not on his own talent, skill, and drive. Robinson's teammates definitely did not suck. In 95, he had an all star SF and Rodman at PF. At the time, many felt it may well have had the potential of being one of the best frontlines in league history.
Robinson was not statistically better in the reg seasons than O'Neal or Hakeem. Maybe even, but all 3 were really quite similar stats wise in the reg season and dominant players. ONeal and Hakeem retained dominance in the post season and DRob didnt. Look at Hakeem 94 or Duncan 03 if you think it's impossible to win a le without a 2nd star or star studded supporting cast. It can be done if you're great enough, which isnt' a slight at all on DRob that he wasnt at that level.
Also, who on earth goes on only the regular season as you say? You don't win a le even if you go 82-0 in the regular season. All that matters in the end is the playoffs. Period. That's the time where you face the better compe ion and something of substance is on the line. Who gives a flip about Horry's regular season mediocrity when he's great enough in the postseason to win 6 rings?
Pro Sports are full of athletes who were great regular season players who's games declined in the playoffs. Think Peyton Manning, Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Karl Malone, etc.
Then there are guys like Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, ROBERT HORRY, who's games elevate in the postseason or at least maintain (which is harder to do since compe ion level rises).
David Robinson just isn't in the 2nd group. He's in the first. Some guys have "it"
Looking at Robinson's postseason failures, it really shouldn't be 95 which stands out, even though it's the most discussed, even a decade later. Robinson ran into a 7 foot Michael Jordan that postseason, a guy who was playing at a level that maybe 2-3 players at most in league history ever reached. Hakeem also killed Ewing and ONeal in that 2 yr stretch where he was at a Jordanesque level.
It's really the losses to the Jazz in 94 and 96 where Robinson really underachieved as the Jazz weakness' was at the Center position, something Houston was able to exploit in 94 and 95 when they beat Utah because Hakeem was just killing the Jazz.
The question you should be asking instead of microanalyzing and cherrypicking stats is Did David Robinson honestly ever dominate the NBA like Hakeem did 93-95 or Shaq did 00-02 or Duncan is doing now? And the answer to that is absolutely no.
Great post. I think if you asked Hakeem or Shaq or Duncan to have a guy like Dennis Rodman as their front court help, they'd be pretty dang happy about it. Having a guy like that who excels at all the dirty work, pounds the offensive glass, defends so well, is a luxury. Look at what he did for the Bulls 96-98? He was instrumental in containing Malone both Finals years and defending O'Neal in 96. And a very good scorer like Elliott as well. No way was that a weak supporting cast.
Look at Bruce Bowen. If you only looked at his stats, you'd think he was a scrub, but he's such a vital piece of what the Spurs are as a team. Rodman has been that piece for 2 different championship teams in DET and CHI. You can't just look at a guy's offensive output when analyzing his value. SA wouldn't have won so many reg season games if the team was just 11 scrubs surrounding Robinson. Or even gotten to the WCF in 95.
You certainly shouldn't fault or criticize Robinson for this, even if it is true.
I still think it is, especially in David Robinson's case.
All three have also failed in several playoff series as #1 options, even when they had decent supporting casts. All three have also succeeded at times when they had elite second superstars -- Kobe Bryant and Clyde Drexer were basically elite calibur players in the seasons in which their respective teams won les. Duncan also had Ginobili, and to a lesser extent Tony Parker -- along with very good defensive role player support, while also having the luxury of geling a few seasons together (Horry, Bowen, Rasho etc..).What do Duncan, O'Neal, and Olajuwon have in common? All 3 have won multiple les as #1 options. All 3 have dominant post games. All 3 maintain or exceed their regular season #'s in the postseason, particularly Olajuwon.
Faulty logic. KG never had a great second star or a consistent supporting cast from year to year. The one season he had an excellent second banana in Sam Cassell, he ended up getting injured by the Laker series.What do Robinson and KG and Dirk have in common? Quite a bit actually. The similarities between Robinson and Hakeem and KG and Duncan are just uncanny. Neither Robinson nor KG enjoyed much playoff success as #1 options. Robinson got to the WCF once, same for KG. Both had well rounded games, but weren't post scorers. KG's #'s are similar to Duncan but is he as good? no. Same for DRob vs. Hakeem.
KG is pretty darn close to Tim Duncan. Duncan has more experience and is more well rounded as a scorer near the basket, and likely the better defender -- but their overall values as players in the NBA are nearly identical.
Maybe on average the playoff game does slow down, but it is not something that happens all the time. The Spurs beat the Suns by playing THEIR fast paced game. It's all about balanace. A lot of NBA teams that play face paced basketball that happen to be elite offensively fail in the playoffs because they aren't balanaced on both ends of the court, not because they don't play SLOW basketball.It's real simple, really. In the playoffs, things slow down pacewise and scoringwise, opportunities for cheap buckets which Robinson lives off of in the regular season decline. So much of Robinson's game was about his athleticism and beating bigs down the court and scoring in transition. These hoops arent there in the postseason. The postseason game is so much more about half court.
Sure its different, but KG's numbers weren't that bad in the NBA playoffs. As a rule, players stats fall in the playoffs, especially if they have minimial support and play against elite teams. Robinson is an extreme case of someones stats dropping come playoff time relative to the regular season, but KG's stats are not that extreme in terms of dropping from reg season, to post season.In the halfcourt, if you have a hakeem or duncan with about 6-7 postmoves, they can always get off a high % shot. Same with O'Neal with his brute force. In the halfcourt sets Robinson's only real options are beat you with the face up jumper which was very good, but not lethal or drive to the hoop. That's why you see Robinson's and KG's #'s dip so much in the postseason. It's really a different game after the reg season.
They didn't win because they weren't good enough defensively. In other words they weren't balanced as a team.The emphasis on half court basketball in the postseason is also why teams like the Mavericks and Suns who rely so much on transition based games in the regular season just don't win les. Same for the old Warriors and Suns teams, although the Suns with Barkley did have a post presence.
I love D-Rob, I think he was one of the best centers to ever play the game, certainly the best in Spur history.
But he lacked some sort of intangible that Duncan has. It's the reason why, despite some spectacular seasons, D-Rob never won a championship before Tim came along. Tim, on the other hand, has won without David.
With that I present Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing and Karl Malone as low post players with no rings.
Not to say that a low post game wouldn't have been beneficial to Robinson's game, but to say that he never won a le is because he didn't have a low post game while dismissing his weak supporting cast (or at least non- le contending support cast) is quite weak.
Oscar Robertson had a great back to the basket game, you don't see him winning a le without Kareem. Wes Unseld does even have any moves, and he wona le.
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