Our Troops Must Stay

[SpursWoman]

I'm pretty sure this is actual language from the Patriot Act.

[exstatic]

The US military runs a campaign to clear out a town or area, and then leaves, not having enoguh US or Iraqi forces (the fundamental problem) to keep the area clear, so the insurgents return.

I think that's the crux of the matter. People are pissed because more troops keep dying to RE-TAKE some of the same towns. THAT, my friends, cons utes a waste of troop's lives.

They're only ramping up 100K Iraqi troops? And they're expecting them to pull the load that 150K of our troops are straining under? We'll never be out of Iraq...

[jochhejaam]

Are the terrorists going to disappear if Chump or I (or countless others) cease to be critical of the reasons that we're in Iraq in the first place?

Freedom of expression gives you the right to beat a dead horse but why would you want to?
Information comes out about good news in Iraq and the best some can come up with is to offer a negative rehashing about how unjust the War is

The desecration of freedom by partisans, how refreshing!

[ChumpDumper]

So the government can throw us into any situation it pleases and we're just supposed to shrug and think the only thing to do is to swallow any story and believe any press release and just wave my flag until we get thrown into another storm?

Being told to blindly go through life without a thought in your head, how refreshing!

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

So the government can throw us into any situation it pleases and we're just supposed to shrug and think the only thing to do is to swallow any story and believe any press release and just wave my flag until we get thrown into another storm?

No, believe the worst and continue beating the 'unjust war" issue to death, that's far more constructive than the option of looking for the positives.

Being told to blindly go through life without a thought in your head, how refreshing!

Hoping for the best and enjoying the good reads that the liberal news mediums fail to report is refreshing and also far from being blind.

[ChumpDumper]

It's a hypocritical war at best, and forgive me for not thinking the long term effects of the invasion and occupation might not be all rainbows and puppy dogs -- especially since the issue of withdrawl is now a political football.

[jochhejaam]

It's a hypocritical war at best and forgive me

<sigh> I can see that you just can't help yourself...I forgive you.

[ChumpDumper]

Show me the rainbows and puppy dogs.

[ChumpDumper]

Better yet, just show me an actual exit strategy if that's what we're supposed to eventually do.

[FromWayDowntown]

Freedom of expression gives you the right to beat a dead horse but why would you want to?
Information comes out about good news in Iraq and the best some can come up with is to offer a negative rehashing about how unjust the War is

The desecration of freedom by partisans, how refreshing!

Yes, you're right. I should relent and just wait until the next time my government is about to become entrenched in a completely unjustifiable war. I should join the lemming parade and parrot those raving about how wonderful this President is.

Or something.

Frankly, joch, I'd rather be a vigilant reminder that the policies of this government have placed the nation in an untenable situation again -- that we still haven't learned from our earlier mistakes. Apparently, sitting idly by and resisting the temptation to "beat a dead horse" wasn't very persuasive when it came time to decide about creating another quagmire in an extremely hostile environment where there is relatively little to gain and a great deal to lose. If you wish to castigate me for that, so be it. I don't consider questioning the government's policies to be either subversive or counter-productive.

[jochhejaam]

Show me the rainbows and puppy dogs.

Why, so you can give me the pull-a-string response about how unjust the war is?
Your take on the war is clouded by your perception that we shouldn't be there and because of that I don't believe your capable of reviewing any good news that comes out of Iraq in an objective manner.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

Yes, you're right. I should relent and just wait until the next time my government is about to become entrenched in a completely unjustifiable war. I should join the lemming parade and parrot those raving about how wonderful this President is.

Nice and balanced response FWD, thanks for illustrating objectivity, I had thought that was a dying art...

[ChumpDumper]

Exit strategy please. Be specific. None of the "standing on there own feet" pla udes.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=FromWayDowntown]

Frankly, joch, I'd rather be a vigilant reminder that the policies of this government have placed the nation in an untenable situation again -- that we still haven't learned from our earlier mistakes.

You and 20 million others so don't come off like your a pioneer with that stance, who's the lemming here?

Apparently, sitting idly by and resisting the temptation to "beat a dead horse" wasn't very persuasive when it came time to decide about creating another quagmire in an extremely hostile environment where there is relatively little to gain and a great deal to lose. If you wish to castigate me for that, so be it. I don't consider questioning the government's policies to be either subversive or counter-productive.

I don't wish to castigate you for the stance you've taken, I'm just airing my opinion that it's become a jaded position.

[FromWayDowntown]

Nice and balanced response FWD, thanks for illustrating objectivity, I had thought that was a dying art...

Gosh, is that all you can get on my position -- that I'm not objective? What on Earth requires or even suggests that I should even try to be objective about my viewpoint on this issue, joch? I disagree with the President. I find that many who support the President cannot articulate principled reasons for their support. I find their position to be similar to that of lemmings and parrots. It's my opinion on a political issue; it's not as if I'm trying to report fact or anything like that. Is expressing my opinion that the President is inept beating a dead horse too?

You and 20 million others so don't come off like your a pioneer with that stance, who's the lemming here?

I never suggested that I was attempting to be pioneering. I just noted that I won't shy away from my position because I also don't support willy-nilly withdrawal of our troops. If I'm joined in that by 20 million citizens as you say, then it suggests to me that support for my position is actually fairly strong, which I find redeeming. Thanks.

I don't wish to castigate you for the stance you've taken, I'm just airing my opinion that it's become a jaded position.

Hey, what happened to balance and objectivety, joch? What's good for the goose . . . right?

[jochhejaam]

Exit strategy please. Be specific. None of the "standing on there own feet" pla udes.

When the Iraqi government stabilizes and their military can control the insurgents. Those conditions are progressing and cannot be helped by negativity or pointing out how unjust it is that we're there.

Please justify how the naysayers and complaining crowds of politicians and American citizens can benefit our soldiers and facilitate a quick and effective withdrawl of our troops. Be specific.

[ChumpDumper]

When the Iraqi government stabilizes and their military can control the insurgents.

Not specific at all. Quantify stability and control.

Please justify how the naysayers and complaining crowds of politicians and American citizens can benefit our soldiers and facilitate a quick and effective withdrawl of our troops.

Are you serious? If we're just talking about soldiers, they could bring them all home immediately. That would benefit the soldiers immensely.

I can only assume you ddin't mean that and that you find words "hard."

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

Gosh, is that all you can get on my position -- that I'm not objective?

Uhm, no, my main take on you position is that you're negative.

What on Earth requires or even suggests that I should even try to be objective about my viewpoint on this issue, joch?

Nothing requires it FWD, stay in your foxhole and only consider the fact that "it's an unjust war".

I disagree with the President. I find that many who support the President cannot articulate principled reasons for their support.

Why do you feel that I think you should reconcile your views on the war with the present Administration? I haven't suggested that at all.

I never suggested that I was attempting to be pioneering.

Of course you weren't, your vigilant and those that don't see it your way are lemmings.
So you're intelligent and anyone that doesn't agree with you is a lemming, that's ridiculous.

[FromWayDowntown]

Of course you weren't, your vigilant and those that don't see it your way are lemmings.

So you're intelligent and anyone that doesn't agree with you is a lemming, that's ridiculous.

And you apparently either can't read or choose not to.

I specifically said that I find that some of those who support the President have no principled reasons for their support. I didn't say all and I didn't even say most. I said some. I said that because your suggestion that I relent from my position would require me to assume a place in that parade -- I cannot support the President's actions in the first instance and any attempt to suggest that I could would be an act of mindless following, similar to the behavior of lemmings. Hence, my effort to equate my acquiesence to your point to my joining the parade of lemmings. Got it?

I respect (but disagree with) the viewpoints of those who have principled bases to support the President. I think those people are wrong, but I appreciate the fact that they've thought about the reasons for their taking up those positions. To be perfectly clear, joch -- I'm not calling those people lemmings even though they disagree with me. Is that easy enough?

[jochhejaam]

[

QUOTE=ChumpDumper]Not specific at all. Quantify stability and control.

Since it's almost 1:00am here and my alarm goes off at 5:00 I'll have to quatify stability as me needing to get off the keyboard and in to bed.

Quote=jochhejaam:Please justify how the naysayers and complaining crowds of politicians and American citizens can benefit our soldiers

=chumpdumper: Are you serious? If we're just talking about soldiers, they could bring them all home immediately. That would benefit the soldiers immensely

.
Okay, that does not answer my question about how negativity and complaining benefits them or anyone.
I'll answer it for you and save you the time, it does not benefit them or anyone!

[ChumpDumper]

Sure it answered your question -- a poorly thought out and worded question.

You're just overtired.

[MannyIsGod]

God, it feels as though it is the same thread everyday.

[gtownspur]

Exit strategy please. Be specific. None of the "standing on there own feet" pla udes.

THis is getting nerve racking to explain for those who have selective hearing.

The president said from the get go that the war on Iraq would take a while to complete. He also said that we will withdraw upon the suggestion of the ground generals assesment and the Iraqi people's success in sef governing and ruling. The withdrawal is based on set conditions, not on imaginary datelines. We're dealing with an enemy who is patient, and thrives on impatience and weakness.

What you want is to to conditions, lets have an imaginary time table/war itinerary where we can play pretend and dictate the progress of the war, and the terms on which the insurgents will surrender so we can declare victory. Once Zarqawi and OBL find out we have an exit strategy, they will concede because this is the world of Make believe Liberal policies. Sounds reasonable? Here i came up with my own exit strategy.

By april 1st, 2006, We will withdraw 40k troops from iraq and hold a national parade just for s and giggles. After that Zarqawi once knowing that we set up a schedule will start to reign in on the car bombings and roadside explosions. Because look everybody, its the exit strategy! Everything will go as planned without battleground errors, massive uprising, more insurgent attack or logistical errors.

By the Beggining of June, I will invoke executive order 12536 to have Jessica Alba have an all nude all female sitcom. During the first episode, we will negotiate with syria on a border fence, and then we will withdraw 40k more troops along with Kanye West radio play in the Middle east.

By september, we will have all troops sent home in time for the NFL season to start and we will declare victory becuase the exit strategy has commenced.

Can you believe the stupidiy? It's like a concerned relative asking the doctor when their loved one will be healed or become healthy again, and the doctor not knowing himself. But hey, he has an exit strategy. Who cares if the patient ever recooperates, he'll pull the plug and all viable life supporting liquids by midnight and declare success!

"..Boy Dr. Freeman, I guess poor ol' bobby bit the dust and was denied proper treatment. But, hey now, we wont level a lawsuit. You had an exit strategy!"

[ChumpDumper]

The withdrawal is based on set conditions

Ok, what are these conditions?

How many times do I have to ask what these conditions are?'

I never called for a specific date, so why is your stupid, ignorant ass trying to use that straw man?

[gtownspur]

Well i was assuming how you were a big lawyer and all and your well informed, you would of heard of Bush's conditions for victory the many times he said it. You want an exit stategy, provide one and quit talking out your ass. I mean, every time the democrats demanded an exit strategy, they demanded time tables. ANd you can't have time tables if your exit strategy is based on the performance and will of a third party.

The conditions are we leave once:

The iraqi's have enough battalions to support their defense.

And the iraqi people can govern their country, or ask us to leave.

Those are not only conditions for withdrawal, but for victory. That's the exit strategy. THe exit strategy is based on Iraqi performance as well as victory.

I mean what else can you base an exit strategy on... a date?