Guy says you should talk to non spurs fans about castle but then makes an argument that hawks fans are seeing something in RisacherTho castles reviews have been good everywhere I’ve read
Castle is as expected but if he cannot improve his shooting then he is useless. This year is another tanking year for the Spurs are they are aiming for a high pick for the next draft so no pressure on Castle, he will have a full season to improve his shot
I raised my case, If he can't shoot, he'll actually be a poor man's Russell westbrook out there, who thrived at the start of his career then started to decline when the NBA became all over the 3.
But that's strange that Russ could never "fix" his shot (30% 3 point career shooter)... iI's the easiest thing to fix I've heard.
Have to really agree with Bill here, as usual his assessments are strongly considered. Shooting is sort of chaff, or fluff, at this point. It's such a small sample of games. Shooting can be ephemeral but also improved.
The huge thing here is how those shots are achieved, how a player is using the court and sees what's going on, how they're processing and involved in stepped-up cir stances. Those micro-skills, as mentioned above. Thrown into a new situation with new players, how is this guy playing basketball under new orders? There was a possession where Risacher was isolated on the wing trying to breakdown his defender. I'm sure Atlanta wanted to see how he did in that situation. (Multiple dribble moves going nowhere, coughed the ball up - but this isn't a bad thing, just information.)
Risacher often faded into the background, needed to be activated, showed the issues he's shown before with a lack of creation skills, both for himself or others. He's fleet of foot and mobile and gets his shot off very quickly and willingly. I think there's a player here, but possibly a role-player at most.
Castle showed dominant skills. No, it's true he was busting his mid-range jumpers and not executing exactly at all times, but that comes with polish. It's how he was using his body, snaking screens, re-setting, seeing the floor, picking guys out. Yeah, as said, this is a point guard or dangerous secondary playmaker. It's not the lack of polish (here or there) or a jumper that needs to be worked on. He's nineteen and has ten, maybe fifteen years ahead of him. What he's showing is a great feel for the game that can't be taught plus superb skills for a young player.
As for Reed, he's looked phenomenal, but my thoughts from college still linger, that he's going to get targeted and that he's a stat-stuffer who doesn't always dominate. Not bad things! Houston can hide him and they don't need a leader or focus. He's perfect for them, a connector who can hit phenomenal passes and shoot highly efficiently. I still take Castle for the Spurs at this point, and Sheppard fits Houston better.
Let's see if your point is valid - you may be conflating what I say by using the word "unique" with "great" - I'm just saying that his archetype of a big defending wing with passing chops is more rare than other archetypes
But to put this to the test, let's take a look at some other guys of his archetype in the league
Marcus Smart
Jrue Holiday
Dyson Daniels
Anthony Black
Jalen Suggs
I don't remember what Holiday looked like at age 19 and the same holds for Daniels; I think that age 19 Castle showed more than what age 20 Black showed thus far at summer league with regards to control on his handle and his passing a en
I remember Marcus Smart when he first started, I had significant reservations about his ability to play lead guard at the time, concerns that I don't have with Castle after seeing him play in that role this summer league
Suggs I think looked decent in summer league, but again I don't remember liking his passing as much as I did Castle
All this to say, yes you are right, nobody knows if Castle is going to do anything in the league. But he has shown more as a passer than many guys of his similar archetype have shown at a similar age. It doesn't mean that he'll develop in the same way, and his shot will still be what holds him back if he fails, but people still have a right to get excited over what they've seen.
Why would Sochan be a guaranteed feature on future rosters?
Sochan has zero offensive skills.
He's shooting 52% at the rim if we exclude dunks, which are uncontested due to his lack of athleticism.
He's below 50% if we exclude uncontested fastbreak layups.
He's shown that he can't handle the ball well enough and that he lacks passing IQ.
Castle is already better in every aspect of the game than him. He just has like 3 inches on Castle and that's about it.
Exactly, our net rating was great with Tre who got torched by every competent point guard.If Castle can't knock his shots, and notably his 3s, his value massively drops around Vic. Everyone can make cuts or knock a FT line shot here or there. , Tre was pretty decent at that with Wemby.
Tre's 3pt percentage is deceiving beacause he can't shoot anything other than corner 3pts well enough.
I don't understand this bit.That's why I also beleve spurs could have been after Sheppard, which could have been great for this team. probably not a superstar but a great complementary player. the finding their PG next year.
Sheppard won't be a point of attack defender in the NBA, so you'd draft another point guard next year. Then Sheppard would be a bench player, I guess?
You'd use a #3 pick to draft a 6'3 guard who's not a great defender and can't be the lead guard?
You're really trying to spin the narrative here, so I'll repeat once again.Now let's hope Castle can "fix" his shot, and why not. But factually, spurs drafted another guard/player who can't shoot in hope he'll learned how to.
SGA
Ant
Derrick
Jrue
Suggs
Smart
That's the entire list of all-defense players who can consistently initiate the offense.
The difference between "can't shoot" (Jeremy) and "bad shooter" (Castle) is exponentially bigger than the difference between a bad and a good shooter.
Forget about the percentages, Jeremy is alone in the gym and given Ben Simmons treatment and is still at 28% from 3pt in two seasons.
Castle's off the dribble threes he made are lightyears ahead of Jeremy's shooting and while he's a bad shooter, his form is fine. Just needs some tweaks to his base and back to make it more consistent.
I'm not going to lie, it's really annoying that you just keep parroting the same nonsense over and over again, only to ignore any arguments that point out how wrong you are. Then you come back a day or two later and repeat the same stuff over and over again.
How the can a 6'6 guard who's entire game right now looks like it's about forcing the defense to play at his pace and methodical snake dribbles in the paint be compared to a 6'3 specimen like Westbrook who just ran at people full speed all game long?I raised my case, If he can't shoot, he'll actually be a poor man's Russell westbrook out there, who thrived at the start of his career then started to decline when the NBA became all over the 3.
But that's strange that Russ could never "fix" his shot (30% 3 point career shooter)... iI's the easiest thing to fix I've heard.
You can't name any other players in the league so you just mention Westbrook?
Also, if Castle is a poor-man's MVP at his peak, then we're good.
You don't have a case to rest.
I'm not usually very confident in my predictions, but I'm pretty confident that you're going to get some for this comp
I'm with you on Castle, he's worth the patience at least to see if he can become an elite PG.
But I understand JPB's pov, he's right factually, Castle isn't a prototypical PG and is a bad shooter. Having doubt is perfectly legitimate imo
You can both be right, Castle will technically be used at the PG position but might not have the at ude and leadership of one bc of his (present at least) limitations, the fact that Wemby will idealy take a lot of the playmaking duties and Spurs will as usual play "positionless" bb with movement and passing that will mitigate Castles's lack of "floor general" abilities.
Castle has great chances of becoming an elite role player for us and who knows what impact Cp3 will have on him?
Either an SGA or a Jrue profile...
timvp > jpb < ST
I hope you're just being sarcastic especially if you're both americans
I'm french and happy with Castle, but that's some weak copping ad hominem technic right here ...
With Castle out, SL games are quite useless to me.
Spurs have done a decent job a building a quite good main rotation but after that, their roster is just plain bad.
The main rotation with 11 players (Paul, Vassell, Barnes, Sochan, Wembanyama, Jones, Castle, Branham, Champagnie, Johnson and Collins) isn't playoff material but it's well build.
After these 11 players, there isn't a single player who looks promising. I find that Spurs could have do a way better use of these 4 regular roster spots and 3 two-way spots. Cissoko, Wesley, Ingram and Bouyea are "meh" prospects.
Castle looked very much the part of a floor general every minute he played. That is why everyone who is now getting the chance to see him play that role is impressed. They are seeing him set everyone up almost flawlessly. These are abilities that were not showcased during his college career. The opinions of many are lagging behind on this aspect of Castle’s abilities, and downplaying what’s being shown just because it’s summer league. The thing is, nearly every prospect that has played has shown the same stuff they showed before they were drafted. Castle is one of the few that’s showing something new. If you have time, find a full game to watch of the summer league games that Castle played in. It’s a far cry from past attempts at the PG spot by other players.
Again, I hope Castle wii do good and I believe he will, he got skills. Good/Elite role player would just fine with me. I don't believe he's Wemby's Robin.
But experience tells me to wait and see how his rookie season goes before determining his ceiling. And I'm certainly not gonna hype myself and fall into what seems a collective hysteria after 3 summer league games where he shot terribly, just because he showed intersting things against other rookies or fringe NBA players... And I don't care if he's a #4 or #15 pick.
I believe some of you guys are putting your expectations way too high, way too quick, with way too little, so far. It takes much more than that for me and I'll wait for Castle to show me he's legit and frst of all, that he can shoot the ball before tagging him as a future HOFer (which reading your comments many of you already do). His first season should be growing pains, specially if he doesn't have defined role and shots the ball poorly.
Unfortunately Castle has proven that he can’t be our starting PG this coming year. He couldn’t even beat out a 75yo CP3. That’s not a good thing. And the reason he won’t start is bc he can’t shoot.
Sure you have posters like LeBowen who have convinced themselves that learning how to shoot is easy for guards
So i am rooting for Castle to beat out Tre Jones as the back up point guard. If he is our back up SG going forward then it’s just another waste of a season for our young talent. Something that Pop loves to do, Wemby included.
Based on a couple of Summer League games?
He hasn't proven or disproven .
The only reason CP3 agreed to come is the starting role.He couldn’t even beat out a 75yo CP3. That’s not a good thing.
Yet Jeremy will start.And the reason he won’t start is bc he can’t shoot.
I'm willing to bet that Jeremy will lose his spot to Castle within a couple of months if he doesn't improve as not just a shooter, but as a player overall.
This following part is such a low level strawman I honestly don't know why I bother with some of you.
Is English your first language? If it is, then I feel sorry for you because your reading comprehension skills are very low.Sure you have posters like LeBowen who have convinced themselves that learning how to shoot is easy for guards
Or you just skim through posts, read out of context and don't read the entire discussion.
I didn't say learning how to shoot is easy, I just said we've had plenty of cases where poor shooters improved drastically, even in their late 20s or early 30s, but on the other hand I can't recall any guards who had no point guard skills when they entered the league and developed them later.
Learning how to shoot isn't easy, but is way easier than developing nuances of point guard position.
I also said that people who just look at percentages without context don't actually watch games.
Jeremy's career 28% on Ben Simmons contests where he's dared to shoot is already a few years back from what we've seen from Castle because he actualy hit a few off the dribble.
Is he a bad shooter? Obviously.
Is he a non-shooter? That would be Jeremy.
I'll repeat it again. The gap between non-shooters and bad shooters is bigger than the gap between bad shooters and good shooters.
Noone said that, you're just talking out of your ass because you've got no actual arguments.
2024 Celtics: Derrick was a career 33% 3pt shooter in his first 6 seasons. Jrue was a career 35% shooter on low volume in his first 11 seasons.Or you have posters like Dejounte who for some reason think that a PG not being able to shoot/make high volume 3s is no big deal for a championship team going forward. Even though 9 out of the past 10 championship teams have had PGs shooting/making a high volume of 3 pointers. I’m still shocked that was even said tbh.
2023 Nuggets: Didn't have an actual point guard. Murray despite his explosions is a career 38% shooter. In his first 4 seasons he was at 35% from 3pt.
2022 Warriors: Steph.
2021 Bucks: Already mentioned Jrue who shot exactly 30% on 6 attempts in 2021 playoffs.
2020 Lakers: No actual point guard.
2019 Raptors: Career 36% shooter up to that point and shot 36% in 2019 playoffs. Was at 30% in his first 4 seasons.
2018 Warriors: Steph
2017 Warriors: Steph
2016 Cavaliers: Kyrie
2015 Warriors: Steph
Where's your 9/10?
Stop talking out of your ass.
The worst thing of it all is that you name players in their late 20s or even 30s as great high volume shooters, but other than Steph and Kyrie none of them came into the league as great 3pt shooters.
Other than obvious all-time great prospects, but you're not getting a point guard who's a great defender, playmaker and shooter in his rookie year. Especially with #4 pick in a weak draft.
I'll say it again.
Jrue
Derrick
SGA
Ant
Suggs
Smart
That's the list of all-defense level guards who are also solid enough as traditional lead guards.
I'd say that Jrue, Derrick and SGA are the only traditional point guards with all-defense capabilities.
It's as rare of an archetype as elite 3pt shooting big men and not having to cross match or hide your point guard gives massive value to the team.
Castle's ceiling will be limited and determined by his shot, but it's just amazing how some of you are so confident with your claims only to be so off the mark it looks like blatant trolling and baiting.
Homer logic = anyone being objective is a "hater".
Castle has been fine and more or less what I expected. The bar has just been so low for non Wembanyama youth for so long that anyone who looks more promising than the usual riff raff is immediately deemed a future star.
All this about Castle and it's his playmaking and point skills and no one's even talking about his defense. Once he's engaged in a team structure this may also really pop.
Great size, strength, and pace for his position, mature skills for his age, evidently strong bbiq, strong passer, and potentially very good defender. I don't even think he lacks value if he's a variable shooter: you'd have to retool the lineup, but a basic pick and roll busts him free and if he and Wemby can develop some chemistry, then it's a lot of trouble to guard. Basically, I don't think he has to have a deep threat to immediately punish defenses.
And then if he does become a threat.
I’m too lazy to find it but you 100% did say that learning to shoot was easy. Don’t backtrack that now. Also you want to say strawman to me but your whole post is strawman. Sochan is the ing power forward. I expect my power forward to struggle with shooting. I don’t expect it with my starting point guard. Also why would Castle replace Sochan as a starter? Special kind of stupid if you want Castle to play power forward. Only on ing Spurstalk man.
Castle shot 26% from 3 in college. He’s sub 30 on the GL from 3. But yet you think he’s going to magically rise that up to 35% or something? Dude can’t shoot. Also bringing up career 3 point percentage is the ultimate strawman. You make it seem like Kyle Lowry wasn’t a good shooter. You keep bringing up Derrick whites first 6 seasons in the league like that means something. I didn’t know that White won 7 championships in a row.
To quote Lebowen: is English your first language? Bc otherwise I feel sorry for blah blah blah insert bull here. I clearly said championship teams and you bring up Whites first 6 seasons in the league. Dumbass. But my my my reading comprehension
What was Whites 3 point percentage this year when he won the actual ing championship dip .
Basically you proved me correct anyways. Jrue shot a high percentage and high amount of 3s. Same with White. Same with Kyle Lowry. Same with Jamal Murray who is the actual point guard of the Nuggets. You just don’t watch basketball so you make it seem like he isn’t. Dude averaged 27 and 8 in the playoffs that year and brought the ball up court and ran the offense and yet he isn’t a point guard bc… Lebowen says so. Oh yeah and he shot and made a buncha 3s when they won. You can’t discount Steph Curry either bc he’s the one who made people realize that the 3 point shot can and will win you a championship.
The one team that didn’t rely on it was the Lakers. Every other team did. Even Jrue was jacking up 3s like crazy in 21 bc the volume is important. You can make up whatever you want but analytics and recent history says if you’re gonna win the le, you’re point guard better take a lot of 3s and make a good bit of them.
Also I bet Castle doesn’t make all nba defense in his first 5 seasons.
He may not be explosive in a sense but if he's athletic enough for Rascal, then good enough for me. Lol. But really, he's doing fine for his age and expectations. He will help make the team better. Yes, I still want a more explosive player somewhere on the roster but he fits what the FO wants and isn't a reach like Primo so I'm content.
Easy compared to learning point guard skills.
And easy for guards compared to big men.
I'm not backtracking.
I'd expect my power forward who's got other skills to struggle with shooting, but Jeremy has nothing going for him on offense.Also you want to say strawman to me but your whole post is strawman. Sochan is the ing power forward. I expect my power forward to struggle with shooting. I don’t expect it with my starting point guard. Also why would Castle replace Sochan as a starter? Special kind of stupid if you want Castle to play power forward. Only on ing Spurstalk man.
His EFG last season was the worst on the entire roster. Actually an amazing feat considering the assortiment of scrubs we assembled.
And it didn't even improve by 1% from his rookie year. His FT shooting is the only thing he improved.
With the Barnes addition, Jeremy is not a power forward anymore. At least not on defense.
If we assume CP3, Devin, Barnes and Wemby are guaranteed to start, whether it's Jeremy or Castle on the floor, one of them is going to be the POA defender.
There goes his power forward role on defense and on offense roles or lineup size don't even matter anymore, it's all about being functional. Which can be done in many different ways. Having a 48% EFG starter isn't one of them.
If he's the POA defender, his size works against him because he's got to chase way quicker guards around which isn't fair to expect of any forward.
Then what's the point of starting him over Castle who already looks like he has a functional jumpshot and is obviously a better playmaker, passer than Jeremy? His layup package actually looks normal for an NBA player, while Jeremy just throws up and hopes for the best.
Where did I say he's going to magically rise that? I don't major improvements in the first few years.Castle shot 26% from 3 in college. He’s sub 30 on the GL from 3. But yet you think he’s going to magically rise that up to 35% or something?
He's still way ahead of Jeremy or if you want a closer comparison, Dejounte who's jumper looked even worse than Jeremy's early on.
But that doesn't really matter if everyone else can shoot. It's good enough if he doesn't hesitate on wide open threes.
He can, he's just bad at it.Dude can’t shoot.
Jeremy can't shoot because taking a 3pt is his last resort, even when left wide open and dared to shoot it with however much time he needs.
How is it a ing strawman, do you even know what strawman is?Also bringing up career 3 point percentage is the ultimate strawman. You make it seem like Kyle Lowry wasn’t a good shooter. You keep bringing up Derrick whites first 6 seasons in the league like that means something. I didn’t know that White won 7 championships in a row.
All those players I mentioned weren't good shooters early on. And that's your problem. Your entire argument was based on championship teams and you strawmanned it in a way which assumes Castle won't ever be able to shoot and that those guys on championship teams were all good shooters from year one. Which couldn't be any further from the truth.
Rookie point guards who can shoot and defend are rarely a thing.
You want to go with insults now, ing re ?To quote Lebowen: is English your first language? Bc otherwise I feel sorry for blah blah blah insert bull here. I clearly said championship teams and you bring up Whites first 6 seasons in the league. Dumbass. But my my my reading comprehension
Yes, it's your ing reading comprehension you moron because you make it sound as if those players never developed any skills during their time in the league and that Castle will never become a decent shooter.
And how much time did it take for him to get there you imbecile? How many years did it take Jaylen Brown to develop his shot and learn how to dribble with his left hand?What was Whites 3 point percentage this year when he won the actual ing championship dip .
If we're talking about finished products, then why are we even bothering with rookies?
Trade those picks and get some help.
But if you want rookies, then look at their potential and the early days of players you're comparing them to.
No, you're just a re who doesn't understand the game of basketball. Fitting for someone with Kobe in his avatar.Basically you proved me correct anyways.
If he's a point guard, then most shooting guards are also point guards.Same with Jamal Murray who is the actual point guard of the Nuggets.
Demar averaged 7 assists with us, was he the point guard? He also brought the ball up a lot.Dude averaged 27 and 8 in the playoffs that year and brought the ball up court and ran the offense and yet he isn’t a point guard bc… Lebowen says so.
Not because I say so, but because you don't actually watch games. He's a primary playmaker only when Jokic sits.
Otherwise his only action with the ball are PNRs and handoffs with Jokic, with most of his assits being created off Jokic's gravity.
Yeah, threes he worked on for many years and finally caught fire for the first time after the bubble.Oh yeah and he shot and made a buncha 3s when they won.
Why did he shoot 31% in the playoffs this year? Streaky chucker.
Why did all the elite shooters who can't defend for collect DNPs in these playoffs, then?You can’t discount Steph Curry either bc he’s the one who made people realize that the 3 point shot can and will win you a championship.
Hield, McDermott, Burks, Robinson to name a few?
Because defense has become as important as 3pt shooting now that everyone has caught up to it.
Btw, this was also a great strawman because you pivoted all the way from player development discussion into pointing out gimmicks about Murray being a real point guard or not, while completely ignoring the defense.
We'll see how Denver does this year without KCP while Murray has to hide because he's a one-way player.
Of course that we wouldn't have picked Castle if he wasn't projected to be a great defender. But let's just ignore than bit and focus on how point guards must shoot, despite all of those high volume, efficent 3pt point guards having to be hidden on defense, because I guess you can just get good POA defenders on the roster out of thin air.
Now volume is important and not just efficency? You're telling us Castle won't even be a 30% 3pt shooter?Even Jrue was jacking up 3s like crazy in 21 bc the volume is important.
I'm not making anything up, I've written many times that Castle's ceiling is as high as his jumpshot takes him, but here you are writing him off because he's not a good shooter at 19, despite almost all the guards you keep mentioning also being anywhere between awful and underwhelming shooters as rookies.You can make up whatever you want but analytics and recent history says if you’re gonna win the le, you’re point guard better take a lot of 3s and make a good bit of them.
As I said before, if all of them are prime examples of 3pt shooting improvement, then how's it not easier to develop a jumpshot than playmaking skills since players who become good playmakers later on are very rare?
Yeah, let's make a bold claim that goes 5 years down the road.Also I bet Castle doesn’t make all nba defense in his first 5 seasons.
If we're not a top5 defense, we're not getting a second all-defense player because Wemby will (deservedly) get all the credit.
Whole lot of nothing except for a bunch of stramwans after you completely missed the point and decided to dig yourself deeper.
TL;DR
Let's compare our rookie to 30 year old two-way point guards while completely disregarding the fact they were also bad shooters when they entered the league.
Because we're competing for championship this season, right?
off with your insults, moron.
Oh look, Sheppard just shot 6-17 with 0-2 on 3pt in a summer league game, better get the pitchforks out!
2 assists, 4 TO and 6 fouls.
Last edited by LeBowen; 07-15-2024 at 07:23 PM.
Honestly no point in watching SL. Nobody on the current team is going to get more than some garbage time outside of Austin. The good news is that Castle looks good, and having Chris Paul as a mentor should be good for him.
I've watched each of his games, I like what I saw but I'll wait to have a better idea when I see him vs a better opposition.
I hope you'e right, I just find doubts legitimate at this point, that's all
I think Wemby is gonna really elevate Castles game, some have mentioned it but those pick and rolls where wemby has the ball up top and castle screens and rolls to the basket will be nasty!!! Plus we’ve seen Castle can pass so there will be lots of options with that play.
He and Clingan had a great thing going and if Clingan has a huge catch radius, Wembanyama's is gargantuan.
I can see the vision with Castle and Sochan even though I dont like them predraft. Jokic has done well with their projected outcome like Gordon and Brown. When your pivot center is this versatile you have to have personells that match it. You still have to look at them as developmental pieces, but they have the base that fits our desired playstyle.
Last edited by rankingtear; 07-15-2024 at 10:45 PM.
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