Grades: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder – Game #15

[Mr. Body]

Seems like OKC is not ahead of us by as much as we thought. They were missing guys, but we beat them without our 3 best players while they had 2 of those on the floor. Very promising

I'm not sure I agree with this. We pounced in the third with a flurry of hits outside. That's today's NBA. They're a very well coached team with a lot of overlap down the roster who can step in and contribute. Our bench is a mess and we are behind past a certain point talent-wise.

However, as I said elsewhere, this Thunder team has appreciable gaps that get worse when Holmgren isn't available. Their tenacious, quick defense can be exploited by a tough, bigger team, and that team was the Mavericks last year. Tbh I didn't think that series last year was particularly close, despite the record, which I think was 4-2. It was pretty lopsided in my eyes. Guys like Lively and Gafford were brutal for them.

And then they depend heavily on SGA with few other options, although their players nail shots out of those routines.

They can overwhelm with defense and execution on offense. They're like the Celtics, really. Both are engineered for this era and it's already got the Celtics a championship and may get the Thunder theirs.

[Spurs Homer]

Nice effort, nice win.

I have nothing but respect and love for pop - and im not saying mitch is the answer going forward beyond this season...

but having said that - this is an example of a win that pop would have turned into a loss by;
a) overplaying branham
b) subbing castle out after a turnover or two (and replacing him with branham or wesley lololol)
c) keeping bassey on the pine and overplaying zollins
d) subbing for keldon in the first half even tho keldon was on fire - pop would have stuck with his "assigned minutes" and subbed keldon according to the regular minutes rotation ....again probably sitting keldon and more branham/wesley lol

Wish the best for pop and part of me wants him to return and let victor take him to the promised land...

But another young promising coach is my preference for the future.

[Joseph Kony]

Seems like OKC is not ahead of us by as much as we thought. They were missing guys, but we beat them without our 3 best players while they had 2 of those on the floor. Very promising

Meh, this is akin to the good ol days when our big three Spurs would play down to the level of their compe ion and lose to the Charlotte hornets or something. great win for sure, but i wouldnt draw any real conclusions about OKC vs SA based on that, especially when they already beat us (albeit without Vassell). And yeah they are missing their entire big man rotation, not to mention guys like Isiah Joe who is a deadeye shooter and always kill us. they really just shot poorly from three yesterday and didnt get to the line much. if Joe was playing instead of Flagler (1-7 from three) they probably end up winning. Dort, another good shooter, also shot poorly (2-8)

[Joseph Kony]

also kinda crazy that they were missing their entire big rotation and still managed to outrebound us

[spurraider21]

I don't think Bassey is suited for a single-big role, at least not on a team that lacks star guards like the Spurs. His lack of size and scoring versatility holds him back. A compe ion is fine, and everyone on the team should be given chances. But it doesn't surprise me that Collins is beating him out seeing as Zach is having a very good year (objectively, not just for him) and fits what this team's second unit needs more.

However, I do think Bassey should be a consideration for that utility stint next to Wemby that Mamu has been getting recently. Bass seems like a guy who fits best in the cleanup role next to another big. Think Reggie Evans next to Blake Griffin. If teams aren't going to play their centers on Victor anyway, then there is very little lost if they decide to play two bigs rather than focusing on spacing along the three-point line. Getting that good PnR roll-man on the floor rather than making forwards try to do it should help with the guards who do play in those lineups. Defensively, Bassey's no worse on the perimeter than Mamu, and he's much better at the rim. I'm not saying Sandro can't keep getting chances. I just think the Spurs should be willing to continue to see what combinations work and not just stick with the idea that you need shooters to creating spacing.

i see bassey as being similar to, albeit less skilled than daniel gafford. he does just fine as a single big on dallas. now obviously you have elite guard play there, which is something you mentioned. but its not like bassey has looked awful out there during the last couple of years when on the court

[sananspursfan21]

I’m not saying anything against the potential goat Wemby here, but this team just had a different at ude when he’s not playing. Reminds me so much of the last couple games of last season. It’s like they’re more deadly when they have no pressure

[exstatic]

I’m not saying anything against the potential goat Wemby here, but this team just had a different at ude when he’s not playing. Reminds me so much of the last couple games of last season. It’s like they’re more deadly when they have no pressure

Wemby played in those games, all of them, including the famous 17 points in 3 minutes Denver upset.

Edit. He was held out of the final game vs. Detroit.

[scott]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season.

[Robz4000]

also kinda crazy that they were missing their entire big rotation and still managed to outrebound us

Spurs still have poor rebounding fundamentals for today's NBA tbh. Mitch has fixed a lot of issues that Pop allowed to fester but that one will take a while.

[Strategic]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season.

Yeah his D stats are the point for me. I think he’s improved a little on offense this season but I just can’t buy into Collins yet. Not gonna mention his ball fumbling and poor finishing in the lane.

[Dejounte]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season.

Someone here said he’s a starting caliber C. The ?

[RC_Drunkford]

Someone here said he’s a starting caliber C. The ?

if you want the #1 pick he is. We got Wemby that way

[Mugen]

I'll retract any Zollins slander if we can use his contract in a trade that isn't a straight salary dump tbh.

[jjspur]

This would have been a loss last year even with a healthy Wemby. It shows the improvement of the rest of the team even without Wemby or Pop. Hopefully we can get everyone healthy and really show much better we are this year.

[CGD]

I'll retract any Zollins slander if we can use his contract in a trade that isn't a straight salary dump tbh.

We are aging in to peak value of that contract itself. Probably has the most value for matching over the next 2 Februarys. Not nothing given how hard it’s supposed to be for 2nd apron teams to do trades.

[Mugen]

Seems like OKC is not ahead of us by as much as we thought. They were missing guys, but we beat them without our 3 best players while they had 2 of those on the floor. Very promising

It was a good win but definitely wouldn't jump to conclusions. OKC is still far ahead of us IMO.

We're still being propped up by a 40yo CP3 tbh.

Granted, Castle looks good, Sochan looked better in those 5 games, and Vic is shaking off the early season rust.

But top to bottom, their roster is still significantly better and they've got the bigger war chest of assets tbh.

[TDomination]

Keldon Johnson has that tenacity, that aggression and energy that I think is great to have for a team that is trying to become a contender.
He is most definitely not perfect but I believe his positives outweigh his negatives and when used correctly, he is an asset to this team. He's a keeper for the long run IMO.

[timtonymanu]

Best win of the season tbh.

Just really nice to seemingly have a coach that actually cares about winning and holds his players accountable. I know for a fact a certain somebody would have had Malaki Branham closing that game instead of Castle last night

Yep I want Pop to recover but it’s night and day the difference in mentality. Spurs needed a young head for so long now.

[TheBallsbreakers]

I love the fact that Castle took 7 threes while only making one. It’s a big change in at ude from college where he would shy away from taking threes bc he was scared to miss. I want Castle to continue shooting even when he is missing. It’s an important mindset to have and one he will need if he is going to take that next step.

Then why this forum so averse on Wemby shooting those same 3s?

[J_Paco]

Bassey was very impressive. Dude just brings what you want out of a backup C to the court. He should be Victor's primary backup

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

We need him to stay healthy and forcing the coaching staff to play him over - maybe with on rare occasions - Zach Collins. Collins has really fallen off a cliff, so to speak, since being good as Jakob's backup.

He's just too 'weak' to be a center, can't guard quick forwards and doesn't take advantage of his size (like at times last night) for my liking long-term. Plus, there is the fact he isn't good enough as post scorer or perimeter threat to do either reliably.

Just not what we need as a back up to Wemby, IMO.

[jehawk81]

This would have been a loss last year even with a healthy Wemby. It shows the improvement of the rest of the team even without Wemby or Pop. Hopefully we can get everyone healthy and really show much better we are this year.

That might be the biggest reason for the team seeming to play better. Everyone & their grandma could see that basketball hasn't really been Pop's priority for 3-5 years & it showed on the court. The team was held hostage by someone that made everything in life more important than basketball. Now that he's recovering(hopefully) & not hindering this team, we should continue to see this team growing little by little before our very eyes.

[Chinook]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season.

I am not going to say EPM is a bad stat. I don't really know much about it and how it's calculated, so I don't know where it's weak or strong. Advanced stats like this are more educated opinion than objective reflections of reality, and knowing what they're actually saying matters. For example, Collins having a high PER speaks well to his ability to be heavily involved during the short stints he's been getting this year. That's because the stat is biased toward usage in relation to the other members on the floor. His high win-shares per 48 are based in something similar. Explicitly, Collins has been a good offensive rebounder, is an above-average passer for his position and has scored efficiently. That's why he's doing well in offensive win-shares. He's doing well in defensive win-shares because of his defensive rating, which is mainly a consequence of him being a big on a team that is in the upper third of the league in defensive rating.

I looked into EPM a little bit, but I'm not sure it's not heavily based on on/off stats. If that's the case, Collins grading as poor defensively rather than just average might be the result of having Wembanyama has the other guy playing with him. As mentioned before, his defensive rating is positive relative to the team's score, which suggests that he's not giving up points at too high of a rate. But he's backing up a generational defender whose pull on the defense relative to the average Spur is much stronger. Combined, the stats would suggest Collins is way worse than Wemby defensively but still does enough to be positive. By that same measure, Collins' strong offensive performance as a single big is the highest on the team outside of Paul. It's very hard to fault in him.

Bassey's minutes suggest he's having a good defensive impact in the sample he's been given. That's good. His offense has been less good, but maybe that'll stabilize as he settles in with Jones and the other players. It's hard to tell Mamu's defense relative to Collins, because Mamu has played PF most of his minutes this year. He faces less challenges at the rim and thus doesn't have the same difficulty of contests that centers do. But he also has more space he has to defend being more on the perimeter.

Collins is having a good year, objectively. That means that it's not just that his stats look good for his standards. They look good for all players at his position and relative to the other players on the team. That doesn't mean you can't make an argument against it. However, I think this argument may mean more that Zach struggles to defend when compared to Wemby than it does him being so bad on that end that it negates the offensive impact he's had. As I've said before, my issue isn't with the belief that Collins can't be 80/20'd or just straight upgraded. It's been with folks who seem to need an enemy on the team to complain about. Collins isn't holding the team back just as Johnson isn't holding the team back, just as Castle isn't holding the team back, just as Jones isn't holding the team back, just as Sochan isn't holding the team back. Just because a lot of those guys won't be there when the team is good doesn't mean they aren't helping the team move forward today. This is the best Spurs team we've seen in a number of years. That fact that they aren't perfect is great, because it means things can just keep getting better.

[Chinook]

i see bassey as being similar to, albeit less skilled than daniel gafford. he does just fine as a single big on dallas. now obviously you have elite guard play there, which is something you mentioned. but its not like bassey has looked awful out there during the last couple of years when on the court

When I'm talking about "single-big", I don't simply mean the only big on the team. I think of it more as a versatile big who plays different roles depending on what the team needs in that possession. That means on ball, off ball, finishing and passing. Offensive run by elite guards don't need bigs to wear that many hats. They needs a guy who plays off them well, finish the opportunities they get and get boards. There's nothing wrong with those types of bigs, but the Spurs don't have the perimeter talent to allow their center to play such a focused role. But as I've talked about with Wemby, those parts of a center's skill-set a vital to an offense, which is why I think Bassey/Wembanyama should get some chances. Collins isn't perfect at playing that role either, but he's in the 72th percentile as a roll-man, for example. That's pretty good for a guy who's been shooting well from outside this year and has been passing well.

[CorrectCrusader]

I love the fact that Castle took 7 threes while only making one. It’s a big change in at ude from college where he would shy away from taking threes bc he was scared to miss. I want Castle to continue shooting even when he is missing. It’s an important mindset to have and one he will need if he is going to take that next step.

Agree fully. This is the modern NBA. We can't be afraid to shoot anymore

[spurraider21]

When I'm talking about "single-big", I don't simply mean the only big on the team. I think of it more as a versatile big who plays different roles depending on what the team needs in that possession. That means on ball, off ball, finishing and passing. Offensive run by elite guards don't need bigs to wear that many hats. They needs a guy who plays off them well, finish the opportunities they get and get boards. There's nothing wrong with those types of bigs, but the Spurs don't have the perimeter talent to allow their center to play such a focused role. But as I've talked about with Wemby, those parts of a center's skill-set a vital to an offense, which is why I think Bassey/Wembanyama should get some chances. Collins isn't perfect at playing that role either, but he's in the 72th percentile as a roll-man, for example. That's pretty good for a guy who's been shooting well from outside this year and has been passing well.

i've only heard "single-big" used in the context of being your team's only big on the floor, as opposed to playing alongside a traditional power forward.

but ok... yeah, bassey doesnt have a very diverse game. thats why i likened him to Gafford, who has very specialized duties on both ends and is effective. Bassey hasn't had a ton of time on the floor in the last year or so. he played 19 games last season at about 10mpg. and he's had limited run this year. obviously with that small a sample size, per 36 numbers or advanced stats aren't very reliable. but he has generally held up well, and its not like the eye test has done him a disservice either.

obviously, on/off numbers as impacted by who you are generally subbing in for. naturally, thats going to make both collins/bassey look bad since they're coming in for vic. last season, the spurs scored 1 less point per 100 possessions with bassey on the floor. they scored 6 less with collins. and this year on a very limited sample size (about 60 minutes), the spurs have been better on both ends with him on the floor.

i think at the very least it merits giving him an extended look, even if its lineup based. like sure, if the team has a weaker offensive unit out there like having Tre/Wesley/Castle/Sochan... then yeah collins' scoring/shooting/passing is going to be more valued. but if you have a mix of starters in there and have some of paul/vassell/barnes/mamu in there, its worth seeing how bassey fares.

i really think the backup C should be by committee and based on the matchup and who best rounds out the rest of the unit on the floor. but collins has the contract...