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  1. #26
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    But I think that's part of the point. The death penalty is generally meted out to those who are deemed incapable of being rehabilitated -- in Texas law, the jury must answer 3 questions before deciding that a convict should be sentenced to death, and one of those questions concerns the likelihood of rehabilitation. Notwithstanding arguments against the death penalty in the first instance, if someone is deemed incapable of rehabilitation but then proves to be rehabilitated and motivated to make a positive use of his life, why not reconsider execution? The only reason for not doing so is a retributive bloodlust.

    If a guy like this, who chooses to make something positive out of his bad cir stances, can't be spared upon proof of his rehabilitation, why would any other death row inmate ever be inclined to try to make himself a better person? Put another way, don't we want to encourage even the worst amongst us to become better, or are we so satisfied that these people are so bad that we have no societal interest in encouraging growth and rehabilitation in that group?
    Part of rehabilitaition is knowing oneself is gulity for that which he's being rehabed for.

    NEXT!!!

    what a waste of legal advice.

    GO back to overturning the "At will clause" for the sake of all of us.

  2. #27
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    Part of rehabilitaition is knowing oneself is gulity for that which he's being rehabed for.

    NEXT!!!
    Again, my point goes beyond Tookie, gtown. I think that if someone is sentenced to death (and, again, my bias is against the death penalty, because I don't think we should judge each other in those terms and because I don't think the penalty can be meted out fairly) but proves himself to be rehabilitated, that is something that should go into the calculus of deciding whether or not he should be granted clemency. That's all. If you think that's wrong, so be it.

    what a waste of legal advice.
    When I offer up legal advice, you'll know it. I didn't realize that every policy argument I make on this board qualifies as legal advice.

    GO back to overturning the "At will clause" for the sake of all of us.
    To what "at will clause" are you referring? I know of no "at will clause" in any legal context. There is an "at will" doctrine that applies to employment environments, but I figured that a hard-core conservative like you would prefer that employers be able to fire employees whenever they wish without legal consequences. That's why I must assume that you're referring to something else. Surely, you're smarter than that.

  3. #28
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    I disagree with the employee at will clause only because it doesn't establish an equal relationship.

  4. #29
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    I disagree with the employee at will clause only because it doesn't establish an equal relationship.
    Then you don't understand at will relationships. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Tookie, but you might want to read a bit about at will employment before you argue that it should be abolished. At will relationships are actually quite equal in that an employer can terminate an employee at any time and for almost any reason without legal consequence and an employee can resign his employment at any time and for any reason without legal consequence.

    I can't imagine that there is a conservative anywhere in the United States (other than you, I guess) who believes that contractual employment relationships are preferable to at will relationships. If that's your belief, so be it, but I think you'd disagree with the consequences if every employee was under contract and could only be terminated for just cause.

  5. #30
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    ^ IN a legal sense yes, it does establish a legal equality between the two. But it does'nt have to be a choice between at will and contractual employment.

    You see, for at will, the employee is the least priveleged. In say for instance like retail and other manual services, if you leave the company at will, they can screw you when you apply for another job, but if they leave you with out notice, you have no recourse.

  6. #31
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    ANd since retail jobs are expendable, the employer has the upper hand at all time.

  7. #32
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    ^ IN a legal sense yes, it does establish a legal equality between the two. But it does'nt have to be a choice between at will and contractual employment.

    You see, for at will, the employee is the least priveleged. In say for instance like retail and other manual services, if you leave the company at will, they can screw you when you apply for another job, but if they leave you with out notice, you have no recourse.
    The employee is not "least privileged" as you imagine. If a company is telling prospective employers things about a person that aren't true, the employee has recourse in defamation -- it is a tort to defame a person's character by spreading false information that bears poorly upon that person.

    That's not even really the problem. What do you propose as an alternative to at will employment? The only other option I see is contracts. Do you really want to make every employment relationship contractual?

    And what does any of that have to do with the virtues of rehabilitation vs. retribution?

  8. #33
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    I would say the employer has the upperhand. Even if you have a defamation case, the employer still did the damage.

    WTH? I agree with Gtown? Gtown must be a woman.
    Last edited by SA210; 12-12-2005 at 07:25 PM.

  9. #34
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    I would say the employer has the upperhand. Even if you have a defamation case, the employer still did the damage.

    WTH? I agree with Gtown?
    In reality, the employer has the upper-hand in every employment relationship, since the employer is the one who decides whether to hire a person in the first place.

    Even if contracts provided for termination for cause and defined cause to be poor performance, employers would have the upper hand in deciding what qualified as poor performance. I don't think you'd see a positive change for employees unless you unionized every field and allowed the bargaining power of the union to take the place of the bargaining power of a single employee.

  10. #35
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    That's the law, but that just doesn't seem right. The employer could be racist, but can say he fired u for performance.

  11. #36
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    In reality, the employer has the upper-hand in every employment relationship, since the employer is the one who decides whether to hire a person in the first place.

    Even if contracts provided for termination for cause and defined cause to be poor performance, employers would have the upper hand in deciding what qualified as poor performance. I don't think you'd see a positive change for employees unless you unionized every field and allowed the bargaining power of the union to take the place of the bargaining power of a single employee.
    You saw what that did for GM.

  12. #37
    Injured Reserve Vashner's Avatar
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    "Governator"...

  13. #38
    Dr. Pepper Johnny_Blaze_47's Avatar
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    Supreme Court just denied his appeal.

  14. #39
    Injured Reserve Vashner's Avatar
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    This case hits home for me. My father was shot in a robbery here in the 70's at an ice house. He worked there and they got robbed for under 100 bucks. The thing is my dad was a head like me.. Former marine he handed the guy the money and said " you" and was shot in the stomach with .357. Spent a year in hospital, much of that in ICU. in a bag etc... Died several years later. I got more instant justice. There was an off duty SAPD detective that was one of my dad's best friends there playing pool. He shot the bad guy in the back of the head.

    Really to do Tookie justice would be at midnight drop him off at a random Qwicky Mart and put a mop in his hands and then let him get robbed to see how it feels.. gurrgle gurgle you fuxxor...

  15. #40
    Lottery Pick Ms. Kaleidescope's Avatar
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    I thought I heard numorous reports of this man really making a difference behind bars.

    If the man is doing something positive use him. Why not if there is something to be gained from him milk it. He might just give a loser or a murder hope that they too can turn their life around. I believe in using all resources for a betterment of earth and if that means using a killer so be it good might prevail from it.

    If he just sitting there doing nothing fry him.
    My thoughts exactly...

    Also, although I'm anti-death penalty, I do understand Arnold's hesitation at overturning a jury's verdict.

  16. #41
    It's In The Numbers 1369's Avatar
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    Rehabilitation doesn't mean a thing when it comes to the death penalty. It's all about retribution.
    It's not retribution, it's punishment. The death penalty is not a "deterrent", it is a punishment for one's actions.

  17. #42
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Interesting read...

    A QUESTION OF EVIDENCE

    Stanley Tookie Williams' best hope for clemency may depend more on raising doubt about his guilt than on his redemption


    Williams has maintained his innocence since the 1981 trial that sent him to death row, but he has been unable to produce the type of evidence that has led to exonerations in other cases -- DNA, a rock-solid alibi, recanting witnesses or a third-party confession.

    Prosecutors maintain that the evidence against him was overwhelming. But the two federal courts that reviewed Williams' case did not appear to be overwhelmed, even though they upheld his convictions and death sentence.

    The prosecution's case was based on cir stantial evidence and the testimony of witnesses "whose credibility was highly suspect,'' U.S. District Judge Stephen Wilson wrote in 1998. He noted that there were no eyewitnesses to the shotgun murders of three people at a Los Angeles motel and that the only testifying eyewitness to the killing of a convenience store clerk was "an accomplice who had a strong motive to lie.''

    Four years later, the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals voiced similar qualms, saying the prosecution had relied on witnesses with "less-than-clean backgrounds and incentives to lie" to win lenient treatment for their own crimes.

    ...

    The witnesses

    The case against Williams depends, ultimately, on the credibility of prosecution witnesses whom the jury found believable in spite of their unsavory backgrounds.

    With no evidence that demonstrates his innocence, Williams and his supporters are left to argue that he was framed by witnesses who lied in exchange for leniency and railroaded by a prosecutor who engaged in racist tactics.

    Williams was convicted of murdering Albert Lee Owens, 26, a clerk at a 7-Eleven in Whittier (Los Angeles County), who was ordered to lie on the floor and then shot in the back during a $120 robbery on Feb. 27, 1979. He was also convicted of murdering Yen-I Yang, 76, and Tsai-Shai Yang, 63, owners of the Brookhaven Motel in Los Angeles, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, 43, all shot to death during a $100 robbery on March 11, 1979.

    No fingerprints, blood or clothing at either crime scene connected Williams to the shootings. The main physical evidence against him was a s casing at the motel, matched to Williams' shotgun by a sheriff's expert whose testing methods have been derided as "junk science'' by an expert hired by Williams' current lawyers. Last week, the state Supreme Court rejected a defense request for new tests of the gun.

    The chief eyewitness was Alfred Coward, who took part in the 7-Eleven robbery and was given immunity from prosecution. He testified that Williams had led a group of four men into the store, forced Owens into a storage room at gunpoint, shot the clerk and later laughed about it, imitating the sounds Owens made as he died.

    Another of the robbers, Tony Sims, did not testify at Williams' trial but implicated him at Sims' own murder trial, which resulted in a life sentence.

    Other prosecution witnesses said Williams had confessed to one or both sets of murders. Samuel Coleman, who was arrested along with Williams and was given immunity from prosecution, testified that Williams had admitted to the motel killings. Williams' lawyers said that Coleman was not alleged to have had any connection with the killings and that it was never clear why he needed immunity.

    At a 1994 hearing, Coleman said police had beaten him and threatened to charge him with murder unless he testified against Williams. However, federal courts found that his testimony had been voluntary and noted that he had a lawyer at the time of the trial.

    James and Ester Garrett, in whose home Williams regularly stayed, both quoted Williams as telling them, separately, that he had committed both sets of murders and had referred to the motel victims as "Buddhaheads.'' Another witness, jailhouse informant George Oglesby, also testified that Williams had admitted to the killings and said Williams had plotted a pretrial jailbreak in which Coward, the prospective prosecution witness, would be killed.

    Williams, who had no serious criminal record despite eight years as a leader of the Crips, did not testify and told his lawyer not to present any witnesses at the penalty phase. At one point, the jury foreman told the judge that Williams was seen mouthing a threat to "get each and every one'' of the jurors who had convicted him.

    The defense

    Defense witnesses included three who said Williams was elsewhere at the time of the murders and one who said Oglesby was known for spreading false information in jail. Williams' claim of innocence, during and since the trial, has focused on discrediting the prosecution witnesses.

    In a recent filing with the state Supreme Court that sought unsuccessfully to reopen the case, Williams' lawyers said the Garretts both had criminal records, faced felony charges at the time of the trial and had been given money and leniency by prosecutors for their testimony.

    The lawyers described James Garrett as a "career criminal and police informant'' and accused prosecutors of concealing evidence that might have implicated him in the killing of a former crime partner and might have made him a logical suspect in the motel murders. Garrett, who died in 1996, was given probation or light sentences for a series of post-1981 crimes, including two shootings, and "knew that he could continue to call in favors for the rest of his criminal career,'' Williams' lawyers said.

    Coward, who was not prosecuted for his role in the 7-Eleven murder, continued his life of crime and is now in a Canadian prison on a manslaughter conviction for beating a man to death during a 1999 robbery, Williams' lawyers said.

    They also said Los Angeles prosecutors had arranged for the appointment of a lawyer for Coleman who would assure his testimony against Williams -- a claim disputed by prosecutors, who said the lawyer was independent and well respected.

    Williams and his backers also say the trial was infused with racism. Deputy District Attorney Robert Martin removed three African Americans from the jury, but the racial composition of the jury remains in dispute -- in particular, the race of an apparently dark-skinned juror of Filipino descent who also might have been black.

    Nine judges on the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals -- four short of the necessary majority -- said in February that Williams should get a new hearing on the juror removals.

    Williams' lawyers also accused Martin of racism for telling jurors, in his closing argument, that seeing Williams in the courtroom was like seeing a "Bengal tiger in captivity in the zoo.'' Defense lawyers noted that the state Supreme Court had overturned two later death sentences in cases prosecuted by Martin because of questions about whether race had motivated his juror selections.
    San Francisco Gate

  18. #43
    Dr. Pepper Johnny_Blaze_47's Avatar
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    I'm surprised nobody has posted this, and if they have, my apologies.

    http://www.michaelsavage.com

    Pictures of Tookie's victims.

  19. #44
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    For those of you interested in following live coverage...

    http://kpfa.org /

    is running coverage of the state murder of Stanley Tookie Williams until 1 am.

    http://www.kpfa.org/cgi-bin/gen-mpegurl.m3u?server=157....

    Running interesting interviews now with live coverage beginning later from the gate of the death house.

  20. #45
    Dr. Pepper Johnny_Blaze_47's Avatar
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    I've been wanting SOME coverage, so thanks.

    I mean, for everybody saying that LA's going to go up in flames, nobody sure seems to be covering it.

  21. #46
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Hasta la vista Tookie!

  22. #47
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    Hasta la vista Tookie!
    Do you have one of the coffins of Tookie's victims?

  23. #48
    Believe. Phil E.Buster's Avatar
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    I'm glad this is finally over.

  24. #49
    Taco is as Taco does sir Taco's Avatar
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    I'm surprised nobody has posted this, and if they have, my apologies.

    http://www.michaelsavage.com

    Pictures of Tookie's victims.
    Damn

  25. #50
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    It's not retribution, it's punishment. The death penalty is not a "deterrent", it is a punishment for one's actions.
    You sure thats what the official stance is? Becaue I'm pretty sure its not.

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