The balless "man" stays in his bubble": Where the President Isn't

[mookie2001]

we kill innocent women, children

true, not on purpose but true

You want the utter defeat of this
country

never heard that one before, its almost like in somekind of playbook
a conservative playbook

Live a little longer and
come talk to me.

good one
way to...be old

He is
also the one trying to come up with rights of those who enter this country
as illegals.

your president is keeping the borders wide ing open

[Yonivore]

Right, so if he's such a fanatic wouldn't he do anything to thwart these efforts to get information. Resisting first, stalling, lying, then repeating.

Who knows and who cares?

And exactly how effective has it been?

Well, if you go on the premise that torture has been used fairly consistently, I would imagine at least some of the intelligence successes during the Iraq war have been the result of a few yanked fingernails. Especially when you consider we had no human intelligence assets in Iraq or Afghanistan prior to 9/11.

I think most folks think this just works like an episode of 24. It simply isn't so.

I think you believe everything is by the book -- or should be.

[Yonivore]

You know, Chumpy, you also presume that everyone who has knowledge is an ardent, unwavering ideologue that wouldn't sell out his cause -- even under torture.

There are many, many peripheral people that have useful knowledge that don't hold the same fervency as do the Zarqawi's and the bin Laden's (even though I doubt they'd be able to withstand torture).

[ChumpDumper]

Who knows and who cares?

You do, since you're the one so eager to torture.

Well, if you go on the premise that torture has been used fairly consistently, I would imagine at least some of the intelligence successes during the Iraq war have been the result of a few yanked fingernails. Especially when you consider we had no human intelligence assets in Iraq or Afghanistan prior to 9/11.

Wow, that's exact.

I think you believe everything is by the book -- or should be.

I question the effectiveness of torture and the ham-handed way the administration is denying and condoning torture at the same time.

[ChumpDumper]

You know, Chumpy, you also presume that everyone who has knowledge is an ardent, unwavering ideologue that wouldn't sell out his cause -- even under torture.

No, idiot, I'm asking how effective it is. How effective was it when our troops have been tortured? What did they get from us?

[Yonivore]

No, idiot, I'm asking how effective it is. How effective was it when our troops have been tortured?

I'm sure a lot of American P.O.W.'s revealed everything they knew when tortured and, I'm just as certain there were military compromises because of that. Who's to say, I'm not aware of any government or military actually releasing a report on their successful torture techniques.

I think you're confusing torture for military intelligence with the type of torture practiced by Saddam Hussein which, as best I can tell, was for his own amusement or to humiliate his political opponents into saying what he wanted them to say before his killed them.

What did they get from us?

Who knows? The al Qaeda hasn't released that report yet.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sure a lot of American P.O.W.'s revealed everything they knew when tortured and, I'm just as certain there were military compromises because of that.

Wow, more exact evidence from you.

I think you're confusing torture for military intelligence with the type of torture practiced by Saddam Hussein which, as best I can tell, was for his own amusement or to humiliate his political opponents into saying what he wanted them to say before his killed them.

Who knows? The al Qaeda hasn't released that report yet.

I know you are too small-minded to think beyond the current conflict and couldn't dream that the armed forces didn't debrief POWs to find out the methods and efficacy of torture used on them. You're such a fan and so knowledgeable about torure, surely you have this information.

[xrayzebra]

Look at the statement and your reply.

Quote:




we kill innocent women, children


true, not on purpose but true

They do. Each and everyday.

[Yonivore]

Wow, more exact evidence from you.

Here's a good article that talks about the effectiveness of torture.

I know you are too small-minded to think beyond the current conflict and couldn't dream that the armed forces didn't debrief POWs to find out the methods and efficacy of torture used on them. You're such a fan and so knowledgeable about torure, surely you have this information.

No, I've never studied torture and, my whole argument isn't about the morality of it either. I just believe it has been effective in certain cases, and in special cir stances, it might be good to know how it was made to be effective in those cases.

It is one of those slippery slope things where, once you do it, you run the risk of letting it become the rule instead of the exception...that has happened time and time again in history and is, probably, what has led to it being deemed ineffective.

You seem to believe I'm arguing in favor of torture. I'm merely pointing out that it exists, will continue to be employed and has, on many occassions, borne results.

[ChumpDumper]

Here's a good article that talks about the effectiveness of torture.

"Torture had led Fawkes to produce a name that fed the false or wilful assumptions of the English government, but did not point to the truth."

Effective, indeed.

[SA210]

[Yonivore]

"Torture had led Fawkes to produce a name that fed the false or wilful assumptions of the English government, but did not point to the truth."

Effective, indeed.

Fawkes wasn't the only one tortured...

[ChumpDumper]

Fawkes wasn't the only one tortured...

The article isn't about them, is it?

Look, you're for torture because Bush is. Don't be ashamed of it and don't be a hypocrite about it.

[Yonivore]

The article isn't about them, is it?

Look, you're for torture because Bush is. Don't be ashamed of it and don't be a hypocrite about it.

I'm for anything that works. I'll leave the efficacy of it to the experts.

In googling the effectiveness of torture, I found a few articles that talk about how it was effective in getting P.O.W.'s to "confess" to crimes for propagandist reasons or to do the bidding of the enemy by making demoralizing statements on the radio broadcast back to their troops.

I'm still looking for articles on the effectiveness of torture to extract information that will prevent a future act -- not address a past event. I do believe that is an entirely different cir stance.

Most of what I'm finding talks about torture to make prisoners do and say what you want. Please, if you can find something, post it...I'm all ears.

[ChumpDumper]

In googling the effectiveness of torture, I found a few articles that talk about how it was effective in getting P.O.W.'s to "confess" to crimes for propagandist reasons or to do the bidding of the enemy by making demoralizing statements on the radio broadcast back to their troops.

Right. McCain signed one of those useless statements, and look where he stands on the issue.

[Yonivore]

Right. McCain signed one of those useless statements, and look where he stands on the issue.

I agree, I'm not talking about torture for propaganda reasons; I'm talking about torture, coersion, or other techniques that have been effective in thwarting a catastrophic event or in revealing an enemy strategy in advance.

I'm really trying to be civil here ChumpDumper.

[Yonivore]

Here's a pretty good discussion on the topic:
Article

Anyone who has had serious pain intentionally inflicted upon him or her--and clandestine-service junior officers receive a small but sufficient dose in their training--knows that the truth has an imprint upon the brain that can withstand the distress, confusion, and loneliness of aggressive interrogation. Lies don't have the same tenacity. There is a reason why the former prisoners of war who briefed my junior-officer class on the pitfalls of imprisonment warned that the truth will come out. No professional intelligence officer alive wants to torture people. No moral man isn't repelled by the damage done to the victim and the perpetrator. But sadism and primitive notions of justice and salvation aren't the only reasons why men, particularly men in danger, have had recourse to torture for millennia.

[Ocotillo]

I don't think the terrorists care. They're going to continue their acts of barbarity regardless of how high the moral ground we take. You're not earning any points for being nice.

Screw the terrorists. You take the moral high ground for yourself and for like minded people. We need allies in the war on terror and that includes other nations and people in those nations.

Again, if we resort to their tactics, we are not different from them.

[xrayzebra]

Screw the terrorists. You take the moral high ground for yourself and for like minded people. We need allies in the war on terror and that includes other nations and people in those nations.

Again, if we resort to their tactics, we are not different from them.

I haven't seen much evidence that we have used their tactics. You know of
any heads we have chopped off? Degrading someone is not terror or
torture, happens here on this forum on a daily basis. Keeping someone awake for hours on end is not terror or torture, happens to new parents on
a daily basis. Putting dog collars on people is not degrading or torture,
they sell them for people to wear all over town and all the "cool" folks wear
them on TV all the time. Do you know of any acts where we have
run homicide bombers into crowds of shoppers? And, I don't want all the
crap about us bombing innocent people, war is war and will always be so.
slapping someone walking down the street is not a brave act. And
when you kill someone when they are in no position to defend themselves
that is exactly what it is.

[Duff McCartney]

If there is a ticking bomb located in an American city, counting down to an detonation that will kill hundreds of thousands, if not millions, I don't ing care if you start feeding the terrorists through a cheese slicer until they talk -- or don't talk (whatever the case may be) -- eventually one will sing like a canary.

If these guys are willing to fly into a building, then I'm sure they could give two s about being fed through cheese slicers.

I think torturing is wrong, period. It doesn't say much about me, when I'd be willing to do the same thing the terrorists do. I will not lower myself like that.

[xrayzebra]

^^ read my post above yours.