6 rings?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I watched Michael Jordan play, and I can say with confidence that I think you are completely wrong. Jordan was never considered a stat-padder, although the same questions were asked of him that are currently being asked of LBJ. Jordan tried to win games on his own because he didn't have any confidence in his teammates, and as he developed, Jordan absolutely made his teammates better, mainly by demanding it from them on the practice court. The Pistons and Sixers from that period were very good teams and it took a few extra years for Jordan to get past them.

What players did MJ make better? Hmmm..let's see here. This list is off the top of my head. He either made these guys tow the line, taught them how to be champions, opened up shot opportunities for them because of his post game and his penetration, or the guys never were worth a with any other team.

Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Bill Cartwright
Horace Grant
Ron Harper
Scott Williams
John Paxson
Will Perdue
Bill Wennington
BJ Armstrong
Craig Hodges
Luc Longley
Steve Kerr

Scottie Pippen had a great year after Jordan left, but he and a couple of other guys made the all-star team that year. They won fifty games, and oh by the way didn't make it to the conference finals. Pippen also refused to go into a game and fought with teammates without Jordan there to keep him in line. Pip did the same thing later in Houston.

I don't agree with that list at all. Half of those guys were legitimate NBA players in their own right. It doesn't matter though because they were all role players except Pip.

Do you honestly think the Bulls would have won 3 straight after MJ came back if Pip hadn't been there? I don't...

BTW, I remember the Pip migraine game happening against the Pistons when MJ was there, am I wrong? 1990?

[JamStone]

tried to win games on his own because he didn't have any confidence in his teammates, and as he developed, Jordan absolutely made his teammates better, mainly by demanding it from them on the practice court.

So, how does that differ from what Kobe is doing now?

Michael Jordan did not make Dennis Rodman better. When Rodman got to the Bulls, he had already won multiple rebounding awards, a DPOY, and multiple championships. It's ludicrous to think Jordan made Rodman better.

Phil Jackson made Ron Harper better, believe that.

How did Michael Jordan make Bill Cartright, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, and Will Perdue better? How? They all sucked before Jordan. They all sucked after Jordan. They were adequate with Jordan because of double-teams. That doesn't make them better players.

Scott Williams??? Seriously?

BJ Armstrong??? Seriously?

Craig Hodges, John Paxson, and Steve Kerr were all great shooters before Jordan. The thing that Jordan did for them was get them wide open looks by the double teams. That doesn't make them better players. That doesn't even make them better shooters. It just gave them open looks. How did that help them with ball-handling or defensive positioning, or any mental aspects of the game.

If anything, Michael Jordan made players regress, because he never gave them opportunities to reach their full potential because the basketball was in his hands at all crucial moments in games. He never trusted teammates to make decisions EXCEPT for shooting wide open jumpers. That in itself does not make a player better. Look at the season after he first retired. Scottie Pippen had a career year, and even won the MVP of the all star game. Jordan had been suppressing Pippen's talents. When Jordan came back, again Pippen had to live in his shadow. That didn't make him better as a player.


Jordan was a winner. He quite possibly be the best basketball player ever to play the game. But, I laugh at the notion that he made his teammates better. He crushed his teammates mentally. Stacy King and Kwame Brown can attest to that. He didn't make players better. Players were scared into following Jordan. Jordan won despite not making his teammates better. And, maybe that is more impressive than anything.

[abelle23]

6 rings no..i think kobe would have dismantled the team just like what he did to lakers...hes no team player....

[ShoogarBear]

Jordan was a winner. He quite possibly be the best basketball player ever to play the game. But, I laugh at the notion that he made his teammates better. He crushed his teammates mentally. Stacy King and Kwame Brown can attest to that. He didn't make players better. Players were scared into following Jordan. Jordan won despite not making his teammates better. And, maybe that is more impressive than anything.

I disagree that Jordan didn't make players better, but what you're saying has the gist of my one long-standing criticism of MJ. Jordan made players better BUT they had to be the kind of players who could play with him.

Anybody could play with Magic, Bird, Isiah, JKidd, and TD: they believe in lots of ball movement and if you got open they would get you the ball. In fact, those guys would/will sometimes accomodate THEIR games to get you good looks.

With Jordan it was the reverse. You had to be the kind of player who could go long stretches without the ball but still keep your head in the game and step up when necessary.
Still, and this is where you're wrong:

How did Michael Jordan make Bill Cartright, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, and Will Perdue better? How? They all sucked before Jordan. They all sucked after Jordan. They were adequate with Jordan because of double-teams. That doesn't make them better players.

That's EXACTLY what making players better is.

That doesn't even make them better shooters. It just gave them open looks. How did that help them with ball-handling or defensive positioning, or any mental aspects of the game.

Again, I disagree. If your definition of making players better is "ball handling or defensive positioning or any mental aspect of the game", then Larry Bird and Steve Nash didn't make anyone better either.

That being said, I say the big difference between Jordan and Kobe is that if Jordan had a Shaq with him, he'd be smart enough to know that they had an unbeatable combination going.

[Obstructed_View]

Michael Jordan did not make Dennis Rodman better. When Rodman got to the Bulls, he had already won multiple rebounding awards, a DPOY, and multiple championships. It's ludicrous to think Jordan made Rodman better.

Any Spurs fan who watched Rodman leave his man to shoot open three pointers in the WCF might take issue with that. Keeping Rodman's dumb ass in line is a feat nobody else was EVER able to do.

How did Michael Jordan make Bill Cartright, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, and Will Perdue better? How? They all sucked before Jordan. They all sucked after Jordan. They were adequate with Jordan because of double-teams. That doesn't make them better players.

Actually, it does, and for exactly the reason you mentioned. If they are adequate with him and suck without him then...

Craig Hodges, John Paxson, and Steve Kerr were all great shooters before Jordan. The thing that Jordan did for them was get them wide open looks by the double teams. That doesn't make them better players. That doesn't even make them better shooters. It just gave them open looks. How did that help them with ball-handling or defensive positioning, or any mental aspects of the game.

Getting a teammate a wide open look makes him better, but there's more to it than that. Steve Kerr has credited Jordan with making him a better player and a tougher compe or. Again, Spurs fans have to agree that Kerr was a tough SOB.

If anything, Michael Jordan made players regress, because he never gave them opportunities to reach their full potential because the basketball was in his hands at all crucial moments in games. He never trusted teammates to make decisions EXCEPT for shooting wide open jumpers. That in itself does not make a player better. Look at the season after he first retired. Scottie Pippen had a career year, and even won the MVP of the all star game. Jordan had been suppressing Pippen's talents. When Jordan came back, again Pippen had to live in his shadow. That didn't make him better as a player.

3 Bulls made the all-star team the year Jordan left. Pippen had a career year, the Bulls won 55 games, and didn't make the conference finals. He also refused to enter a close game at the end because he felt disrespected, which is textbook regression. Without Jordan, the Bulls turned into the Mavericks. Without Jordan, Pippen was a me-first loser with really great stats.

Jordan was a winner. He quite possibly be the best basketball player ever to play the game. But, I laugh at the notion that he made his teammates better. He crushed his teammates mentally. Stacy King and Kwame Brown can attest to that. He didn't make players better. Players were scared into following Jordan. Jordan won despite not making his teammates better. And, maybe that is more impressive than anything.

I can't speak to Stacy King but Kwame Brown has been mentally crushed since he's been in the league, and nobody has been able to do anything with him since Jordan left. Jordan didn't make everybody better, just the guys who were able to play with him.

[adidas11]

Quote: "With Jordan it was the reverse. You had to be the kind of player who could go long stretches without the ball but still keep your head in the game and step up when necessary."

Agreed. This is similar to Allen Iverson and the current friction/trouble with the Sixers. You have to have certain types of players around Iverson to be successful. Like back in the 2000/2001 season, they surrounded Iverson with defensive players and spot up shooters. Any kind of player who needs the ball in the post or needs to handle the ball (Webber) will not thrive with Iverson, because he handles the ball so much.

In the case of Jordan, you can't have a point guard in the backcourt with him who is a primary ball handler and penetrator. He has to be a spot up shooter (John Paxon), or else it won't work. A point guard like Tony Parker would have an awful time playing with someone like Jordan in his prime.

Now with Jordan, I fully believe that a lot of the maturation of certain players on that team happened in SPITE of Jordan. Make no mistake about it, Jordan could be a selfish player, who wanted to win championships while also getting personal accolades at the same time. Winning the scoring les was VERY important to him, and they were able to succeed MAINLY because of the system that Phil Jackson implemented (triangle).

I agree with TimVP's assessment that Kobe might be a more talented scorer than Jordan, he has more moves, and he is slightly taller and has more arm length. And with Jordan, he is far quicker (his footspeed was unreal, and he had flashing point guard quickness),

and in my opinion, the biggest thing that seperates Jordan from Kobe is that Jordan is bar far the most fundamentally sound basketball player that I have ever seen.

[Obstructed_View]

Kobe is an incredible scorer. He's incredibly clutch. He hasn't proven he can hold Jordan's jock yet. He has plenty of time to do so.