Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 39 of 39
  1. #26
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    The difference is that a consensual sex between adults isn't a crime. Political corruption and financial fraud are federal crimes.
    Lying about it, under oath, in front of a federal grand jury is.

    And, being in the presence of a criminal doesn't make you one. Just ask Hillary Clinton...who was photographed shaking the hand of a drug runner. Or, Roselynn Carter who posed for a photo with John Wayne Gacy.

    I think the photos are only important if there are other cir stances that indicate the photos were more than reception line handshakes or huge events where the president probably didn't know 90% of the people in the room.

    So, I agree with releasing any White House information that demostrates a relationship beyond what I described above. But, barring that, the photographs are insignificant and shouldn't have to be released just so the left can have a new toy.

  2. #27
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Post Count
    15,842
    January 29, 2006
    Editorial


    Spies, Lies and Wiretaps

    A bit over a week ago, President Bush and his men promised to provide the legal, cons utional and moral justifications for the sort of warrantless spying on Americans that has been illegal for nearly 30 years. Instead, we got the familiar mix of political spin, clumsy historical misinformation, contemptuous dismissals of civil liberties concerns, cynical attempts to paint dissents as anti-American and pro-terrorist, and a couple of big, dangerous lies.

    The first (big, dangerous lie) was that the domestic spying program is carefully aimed only at people who are actively working with Al Qaeda, when actually it has violated the rights of countless innocent Americans. A

    And the second (big, dangerous lie) was that the Bush team could have prevented the 9/11 attacks if only they had thought of eavesdropping without a warrant.


    Sept. 11 could have been prevented.

    This is breathtakingly cynical. The nation's guardians did not miss the 9/11 plot because it takes a few hours to get a warrant to eavesdrop on phone calls and e-mail messages. They missed the plot because they were not looking. The same officials who now say 9/11 could have been prevented said at the time that no one could possibly have foreseen the attacks. We keep hoping that Mr. Bush will finally lay down the bloody banner of 9/11, but Karl Rove, who emerged from hiding recently to talk about domestic spying, made it clear that will not happen * because the White House thinks it can make Democrats look as though they do not want to defend America. "President Bush believes if Al Qaeda is calling somebody in America, it is in our national security interest to know who they're calling and why," he told Republican officials. "Some important Democrats clearly disagree."

    Mr. Rove knows perfectly well that no Democrat has ever said any such thing * and that nothing prevented American intelligence from listening to a call from Al Qaeda to the United States, or a call from the United States to Al Qaeda, before Sept. 11, 2001, or since. The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act simply required the government to obey the Cons ution in doing so. And FISA was amended after 9/11 to make the job much easier.

    Only bad guys are spied on.

    Bush officials have said the surveillance is tightly focused only on contacts between people in this country and Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Vice President Cheney claimed it saved thousands of lives by preventing attacks. But reporting in this paper has shown that the National Security Agency swept up vast quan ies of e-mail messages and telephone calls and used computer searches to generate thousands of leads. F.B.I. officials said virtually all of these led to dead ends or to innocent Americans. The biggest fish the administration has claimed so far has been a crackpot who wanted to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge with a blowtorch * a case that F.B.I. officials said was not connected to the spying operation anyway.

    The spying is legal.

    The secret program violates the law as currently written. It's that simple. In fact, FISA was enacted in 1978 to avoid just this sort of abuse. It said that the government could not spy on Americans by reading their mail (or now their e-mail) or listening to their telephone conversations without obtaining a warrant from a special court created for this purpose. The court has approved tens of thousands of warrants over the years and rejected a handful.

    As amended after 9/11, the law says the government needs probable cause, the cons utional gold standard, to believe the subject of the surveillance works for a foreign power or a terrorist group, or is a lone-wolf terrorist. The attorney general can authorize electronic snooping on his own for 72 hours and seek a warrant later. But that was not good enough for Mr. Bush, who lowered the standard for spying on Americans from "probable cause" to "reasonable belief" and then cast aside the bedrock democratic principle of judicial review.

    Just trust us.

    Mr. Bush made himself the judge of the proper balance between national security and Americans' rights, between the law and presidential power. He wants Americans to accept, on faith, that he is doing it right. But even if the United States had a government based on the good character of elected officials rather than law, Mr. Bush would not have earned that kind of trust. The domestic spying program is part of a well-established pattern: when Mr. Bush doesn't like the rules, he just changes them, as he has done for the detention and treatment of prisoners and has threatened to do in other areas, like the confirmation of his judicial nominees. He has consistently shown a lack of regard for privacy, civil liberties and judicial due process in claiming his sweeping powers. The founders of our country created the system of checks and balances to avert just this sort of imperial arrogance.

    The rules needed to be changed.

    In 2002, a Republican senator * Mike DeWine of Ohio * introduced a bill that would have done just that, by lowering the standard for issuing a warrant from probable cause to "reasonable su ion" for a "non-United States person." But the Justice Department opposed it, saying the change raised "both significant legal and practical issues" and may have been uncons utional. Now, the president and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales are telling Americans that reasonable su ion is a perfectly fine standard for spying on Americans as well as non-Americans * and they are the sole judges of what is reasonable.

    So why oppose the DeWine bill? Perhaps because Mr. Bush had already secretly lowered the standard of proof * and dispensed with judges and warrants * for Americans and non-Americans alike, and did not want anyone to know.

    War changes everything.

    Mr. Bush says Congress gave him the authority to do anything he wanted when it authorized the invasion of Afghanistan. There is simply nothing in the record to support this ridiculous argument.

    The administration also says that the vote was the start of a war against terrorism and that the spying operation is what Mr. Cheney calls a "wartime measure." That just doesn't hold up. The Cons ution does suggest expanded presidential powers in a time of war. But the men who wrote it had in mind wars with a beginning and an end. The war Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney keep trying to sell to Americans goes on forever and excuses everything.

    Other presidents did it.

    Mr. Gonzales, who had the incredible bad taste to begin his defense of the spying operation by talking of those who plunged to their deaths from the flaming twin towers, claimed historic precedent for a president to authorize warrantless surveillance. He mentioned George Washington, Woodrow Wilson and Franklin D. Roosevelt. These precedents have no bearing on the current situation, and Mr. Gonzales's timeline conveniently ended with F.D.R., rather than including (Repug) Richard Nixon, whose surveillance of antiwar groups and other political opponents inspired FISA in the first place. Like Mr. Nixon, Mr. Bush is waging an unpopular war, and his administration has abused its powers against antiwar groups and even those that are just anti-Republican.

    The Senate Judiciary Committee is about to start hearings on the domestic spying. Congress has failed, tragically, on several occasions in the last five years to rein in Mr. Bush and restore the checks and balances that are the genius of American cons utional democracy. It is critical that it not betray the public once again on this score.

    *Copyright 2006 Te New York Times Company

  3. #28
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Post Count
    15,842
    "Lying about it, under oath, in front of a federal grand jury is."

    Total Bull . Why was adult being asked about consensual adult sex in the first place? The question was completely out of order.

    Was detailed, prurient investigation of Clintion's sex life in the charter of the S/P Ken Starr?

    Starr was a politicized Repug s bag on a ing fishing expedition with the sole objective to destroy Clinton. He came up empty handed.

  4. #29
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
    My Team
    Detroit Pistons
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    7,614
    "Lying about it, under oath, in front of a federal grand jury is."

    Total Bull . Why was adult being asked about consensual adult sex in the first place? The question was completely out of order.
    Ancient Chinese Proverb say:

    One should be more careful about having harMonica and flute auditions in the Oval Office.

  5. #30
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    32,408
    "Lying about it, under oath, in front of a federal grand jury is."

    Total Bull . Why was adult being asked about consensual adult sex in the first place? The question was completely out of order.

    Was detailed, prurient investigation of Clintion's sex life in the charter of the S/P Ken Starr?

    Starr was a politicized Repug s bag on a ing fishing expedition with the sole objective to destroy Clinton. He came up empty handed.
    Wingers will say that 'the question' was pertanant to the Paula Jones case, another right-wing hatchet job to try and attack President Clinton, but your right, it was a total invasion of the President's privacy.

  6. #31
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
    My Team
    Detroit Pistons
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    7,614
    Wingers will say that 'the question' was pertanant to the Paula Jones case, another right-wing hatchet job to try and attack President Clinton, but your right, it was a total invasion of the President's privacy.
    Privates

  7. #32
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    "Lying about it, under oath, in front of a federal grand jury is."

    Total Bull . Why was adult being asked about consensual adult sex in the first place? The question was completely out of order.
    No, he was being asked because his consensual adult sex was relevant to a court proceeding in which he was a party. His lie was crafted to deny a litigant her due process rights.

    Was detailed, prurient investigation of Clintion's sex life in the charter of the S/P Ken Starr?
    When the three judge panel, appointed by Janet Reno, said it was, it was. They approved that tack in the investigation because it presented the possibility that a sitting President had lied, under oath, and that the lie obstructed a court proceeding.

    You really didn't pay attention during the 90's, did you?
    Starr was a politicized Repug s bag on a ing fishing expedition with the sole objective to destroy Clinton. He came up empty handed.
    Starr did nothing without the approval of the three-judge panel appointed by Janet Reno. Check your history.

  8. #33
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Post Count
    14,286
    Back to the topic, yea, he Bush lied, again.

    Whatcha hidin' there dubya?

  9. #34
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Post Count
    15,842
    "Paula Jones case"

    case dismissed.

  10. #35
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    60000 and losing your leadership position. Think about it. And it ant a
    Republican.

  11. #36
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    "Paula Jones case"

    case dismissed.
    Not before he lied under oath...and probably because he lied.

    After he was caught lying, there was a settlement.

  12. #37
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Lying about it, under oath, in front of a federal grand jury is.
    Good idea, perhaps we could subpeana Bush and get the REAL truth for a change.

    It would take a hardened ideologe to actually believe that Bush wouldn't be as much of a weasel under oath as Clinton was.

    Clinton was impeached for lying under oath.

    Where is the movement to impeach Bush for uncons utionally usurping power, and bypassing our laws? Surely that falls under "high crimes and misdemeanors", yes?

  13. #38
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    So, I agree with releasing any White House information that demostrates a relationship beyond what I described above. But, barring that, the photographs are insignificant and shouldn't have to be released just so the left can have a new toy.
    I'm sure you said the same when the photos of Clinton hugging Monica were run up on fox news...


    Methinks the stench of hypocrisy is getting stronger...

  14. #39
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Post Count
    14,286
    It shouldn't be a problem. Of course, unless, Bush has something to hide.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •