and he's made the knicks the laughingstock of the NBA. the whole team should be sent to the NBDL for a couple of seasons. they suck
good job Isaiah
The problem I have with Isiah is that I think he might be schizo or bi-polar or something. As whott pointed out he does draft well, but then he turns around and throws money at a chimp like Jerome James. And with drafting being one of his strong suits, he's dealt away most of their picks in the near future. For every good move he pulls he does two that leave you scratching your head.
I am just wondering what draft order he got those picks, and the only real standout so far is fry. you only get good players by having consistently bad teams. The draft order has not stopped the revolving door player policy. 50 trades a year will not stablize a franchise much less allow a team to incorporate all these wonderful draft picks you seem to be gushing over. Lets see, should I bench 10 million or 15 million to develop that much lower priced bargain basement priced lower than our center rook. ya, i can see why you root so heavily for isaiah as the next executive of the year. however, i think they could use a few more 20 million dollar one two combo guards.
I'll take up whottt's side of this argument for kicks.
I think the jury's out for the time being on Isiah's moves with New York. That's mostly because Isiah has to attempt rebuilding without the usual means of accomplishing that. Normally, a rebuilding team that is capped out will try to deal off bad contracts and acquire expiring contracts in the hope that some cap space in the future will allow the pursuit of quality free agents. Isiah couldn't do that in New York, largely because even with expiring deals the Knicks would be over the cap for the next 4-5 years. The Knicks aren't well-served by allowing deals like Penny's to expire, because they'd lose the value of the contract for nothing. Isiah had a choice: he could either use his expiring contracts to take on other people's longer term problems or he could simply let deals like Penny's expire and then wait out the string of contracts to get back to square one. He appears to have taken a relatively proactive approach.
Rather than seek out cap relief, Isiah has gone in the opposite direction. Isiah's "plan" seems to be one of acquiring "assets," players he thinks have league-wide value or appeal and draft picks. He can use those assets, in some combination, to make deals to acquire either players who are under contract elsewhere (Kevin Garnett) or players who are free agents (via sign-and-trades). Assuming that his ultimate goal is Garnett this off-season, or Lebron James somewhere down the road (or even both), Isiah has to have commodities that he can deal to acquire those players. To get Garnett, he needs substantial salaries and guys that might be somewhat attractive to the T'Wolves. He now has two high-priced (if underperforming) guards, some wings with big contracts, and some draft picks. He can match Garnett's salary and at least appear to give some quality back to Minnesota, which is going to have to happen if the Timberwolves are to retain any credibility in Minneapolis after dealing Garnett. He can make a similar play for Lebron if King James decides that he wants out of Cleveland.
All of that assumes, of course, that teams would actually be willing to take any of the guys he's acquired, and I think that may be where his plan ultimately falls apart. But if he's able to deal to get either KG or Lebron, he'll be lauded as having done it smartly. If he gets them both, he'll be a genius. If he gets neither, his critics will have been right all along.
Get Larry Brown to explain it to you...
IF you weren't a bandwaggoner you'd know the Knicks were a laughing stock when Isiah got there...at worst you can accuse him of not improving the situation...but he made the playoffs his first year and at least now they are a talented laughingstock with a great coach.
You basically got the gist of it...
Look the guy will probably will get fired...because NY doesn't like being a joke...if they don't start winning he's gonna get fired.
But there is no denying he's got a good eye for talent and he's made moves that allow the Knicks to land a big star(s).
The problem I have is with everyone acting like he is a dumbass because of the Knicks payroll...it was never his or the Knicks concern as evidenced by the fact that they didn't even use the amnesty rule on Houston's contract(and no, they didn't know he was going to retire when they made that move). They wanted that contract.
Yet the Knicks sucked when Nazr was there...as did the Hawks...Nazr was traded by Larry Brown in the first place.
Well what is it that you want to compare? You want me to go dig up all the, "Nazr sucks" threads that were all over this board prior to last week?you can't compare stats between an undersized PF (easy to find : Singleton and Hayes wasn't drafted and Evans was a secound round draft pick) in a 15-41 team and a center in a 44-12 team.
He turned Sweetney into Curry and Ariza into Steve Francis...
Look at the team now...
Marbury
Curry
Jalen Rose
Steve Francis
Crawford
Frye
etc...
Anyone that thinks the Knicks don't have talent coming out the wazzo doesn't know what talent is...it hasn't translated to wins...but you can start to lay that at the feet of Larry Brown as well...
Remember....when he got Marbury, Marbury had just given us fits in the playoffs the previous season when we won a le...a of a lot tougher time than the Suns gave us last year...It paid off in the playoffs...now they got chemistry issues...it's Browns job to fix that.
The team was atrocious before he arrived and somehow he's made it unfathomably worse with his decisions. His moves make no sense to no one. There's no question he should be fired.
He really hasn't made it unfathomably worse...they are stocked with draft picks, stars, a great coach, and talent.
The only thing absent is the winning...
What moves didn't make sense?
Getting Marbury? Marbury nearly singlehandedly destroyed us(the eventual champions) in the playoffs the year before. And he got the Knicks to the playoffs his first year. Is it really that hard to see why a dominant scoring PG would go after a similar type player once he becomes a GM?
Getting Crawford and now Franchise?
Well...the guy won 2 les on a team built around two dominant scoring guards, tough hardnosed defense and rebounding...
Is it really that hard to see why he got Malik(not to mention 2 #1 picks)...Nazr damn sure isn't hard nosed or tough, and it's not like the Knicks didn't suck when they had Nazr....and he is it really a mystery looking at that model why he went after Crawford...Franchise...Larry Brown?
To me his plan is pretty obvious...he doesn't have payroll contraints or the small market woes of SA and infact large contracts serve his purposes better...
For the final time...he's not worried about payroll...and never has been, and neither are his owners particularly worried about it...the lack of wins is the thing.
Does anyone think the Knicks record is due to a lack of talent?
It's not...
Last edited by whottt; 02-28-2006 at 01:53 PM.
whott, a few things ...
1. Jimmy King was a second round draft pick. He wasn't a crappy draft pick. The only players drafted after him that even stayed longer than a few years in the league were Eric Snow, Fred Hoiberg, and Don Reid. Second round picks are often gamble picks. It was not a bad draft pick.
2. Isiah Thomas did not draft Michael Sweetney. That was the 2003 draft, and Sweetney was drafted by Scott Layden.
Isiah also heavily influenced the drafting of Jamaal Tinsley, as one of the last picks in the first round. He also essentially drafted Fred Jones, a player who a lot of people felt was a stretch for #14 in the 2002 NBA draft, but as it turns out, he's been one of the better players from that draft, perhaps only surpassed by Tayshaun Prince and Nenad Krstic as players who were taken later that should have gone much higher. And, also Isiah drafted James Jones in the second round. Much like Ariza, James Jones has proven to be a player in this league, even if it's only a role player. To get good value in the second round is pretty commendable.
they are the laughingstock now for these reasons,
- now they have "superstar players" and still suck
- they make many big trades and big signins all year long and still suck
- they got larry brown and still suck
- this season they not only suck, but they're the worst team in the nba
before, that was not the case. get off Isaiah's nuts. he singlehandedly buried the knicks deeper than ever before.
Charlie Ward > Howard Eisley > Frank Williams
Allan Houston > Shandon Anderson
Keith Van Horn > Clarence Weatherspoon
Kurt Thomas > Antonio McDyess > Michael Sweetney
Dikembe Mutombo > Michael Doleac > Ot a Harrington > Maciej Lampe
At the end of 2003 / beginning of 2003, this is the New York Knicks roster when Isiah Thomas took over. All three point guards are out of the NBA now. Howard Eisley had a couple 10 contracts, I think earlier in the season. Allan Houston has retired. Clarence Weatherspoon is out of the NBA. Michael Doleac and Shandon Anderson are 12th men or injured reserve players for the Miami Heat.
Isiah Thomas has financially burdened the Knicks more horribly than when he came on. But, talent wise and youth wise, he has improved the roster. He decided to take a very strange route by acquiring large contracts just to upgrade talent without considering chemistry and role playing issues.
But, the current roster has no players that were on the roster when Isiah Thomas got the gig. And, it has only been about two years since that has happened, the beginning of 2004. He completely overhauled the roster by taking on salaries and giving away draft picks. Now, it might not have been a good idea. But, the Knicks were already in the tank in 2003-04. Isiah technically could have done nothing else but to sit on contracts and let them expire and have Frank Williams and Shandon Anderson as a starting backcourt while letting players like Trevor Ariza and Mike Sweetney try to develop into players. If that were to happen, the record would probably still be similar.
At least now, there is talent to work with. There are still chemistry problems, and financially the Knicks are more than a mess. But, there are pieces to work with. Eddy Curry as lazy as he is can be a pretty good center on offense. As much of a ballhog and egomaniacal as both Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis are, not to mention perenniel losers, they have talent. Channing Frye, Nate Robinson, and David Lee are good young players who may be able to contribute or can be used as trading chips.
The Knicks are bad. They are a joke. But, I don't think they would have been better had Isiah not done the things he's done. I think they would be just as bad if not worse.
A logjam of players that play the same position? Various starting rotations from game to game? Players that don't know their roles? A $125 million payroll? Are you kidding?
Any sports franchise that has the highest payroll and is unquestionably THE worse team in the league (and perhaps in all of sports) probably does not have the right mix of players to be successful. Forget coaching.
Stcokpiling high-priced talent is one thing, developing team chemistry is quite another. (See the '03 Mavs and '05 Heat). The Spurs have not won championships simply because they had the "best" talent in the league.
The only thing that's obvious about Isiah's plan is he's an idiot GM. If you don't think the Knicks are worse shape since Isiah's arrival, take a look at the moves that have backfired under his regime.
http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/60404.htm
February 28, 2006 -- It has been a horrifying eight months for Isiah Thomas. Five moves have backfired and left him with a roster that carries the NBA's highest payroll at $125 million. All that for a 15-41 record. With the cast of misfits having given up on new coach Larry Brown, the Knicks could supplant Charlotte with the league's worst record:
JUNE 28
On draft night, Kurt Thomas is traded for Quentin Richardson and Phoenix' first-round pick (Nate Robinson). Despite a chronic disc problem, the Knicks take on the final five years and $40.3 million of Richardson's pact. Overall, the Knicks add $20.6M in payroll. Richardson lost his shooting touch and Robinson lost respect from Brown when he threw the ball up off the backboard in a foiled attempt at a circus-like dunk.
JULY 15
Isiah agrees to terms with Jerome James on a five-year, $30 million contract. The Knicks gave up their entire $5M mid-level exception to sign the Seattle center who averaged 15 minutes per game. The 300-pounder will be owed $6.6M in his final year -2009-2010 - when he'll likely be well out of the league. James reported to camp way out of shape, and it's been a season filled with hamstrings and hangovers for him.
OCT. 4
Michael Sweetney, Tim Thomas, their 2006 first-round pick and a conditional 2007 first-rounder are traded to Chicago for Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis. Curry signs a six-year, $60 million deal as the Knicks take on another $54 million in payroll. Their attempt to save money by buying out Davis is thwarted. Curry has shown an inability to get in shape. The worst part is the Bulls might get the first overall pick in the draft, courtesy of Isiah forgetting to protect the selection.
FEB. 3
The Knicks trade Antonio Davis to the Raptors for Jalen Rose and a late first-round pick. Rose has one more year left on his contract at $17 million. Hence, with luxury tax included, the Knicks added $34 million in expense for a marginal upgrade. The Knicks are 1-11 since the trade.
FEB. 22
The Knicks trade Penny Hardaway's contract and Trevor Ariza for Steve Francis. Francis makes $13.7 million this season and has three years and $49.7M left on his contract. With Hardaway's contract expiring, the Knicks took on almost another $50M. Francis does the same exact things as Stephon Marbury, so his value to the team is vague. Plus, he's a big-time prima-donna who already skipped out on the team once during this road trip to get some more clothes at his home in Orlando.
The Knicks have been the laughingstock since they've ended up with stars who couldn't play due to injury (ie Houston, Hardaway) as well as some lesser players who couldn't (Jerome Williams). Since they're in rebuild mode, getting stars who can play is a first step. Making better draft decisions is another. Thomas inherited a plethora of Layden's draft mistakes. He's done better so far than Layden. The salaries the Knicks take on don't matter as much since the team can handle a large payroll + luxury tax. He's made some recent moves which have netted the team extra picks (the ADavis and Malik trades).
Say James really wants to play in NY. Granted, he won't have the leverage of being able to sign with NY outright (maybe he could use another team for that purpose), but if he isn't going to be happy in Cleveland maybe the Cavs will grant him his wish. Then at least the Knicks would have some players to offer the Cavs in return.
Right now the Knicks are going younger. Some pan the Rose trade, but from the Knicks' perspective, this summer they would probably have to give Mohammed a big deal. That would mean they'd end up with an average center with most of his contract being paid out when he's in his 30s and his best seasons are behind him. Rose's deal is a shorter, less expensive commitment. Plus the Knicks got two 1st round picks out of the deal. The Davis deal follows this logic.
As long as the Knicks continue to draft better than before plus are able to get pieces that fit using their stars who can play, the team's prospects should improve.
So, in short, the jury's still out on Thomas' tenure in NY. Layden's really the one to blame for the mess, since his drafting absolutely sucked.
As for JEROME JAMES ...
Isiah wanted a center with legitimate size. That's why he traded away Nazr Mohammed, because he just wasn't a real center with the actual size to bang with the really big centers. And, Isiah did not know he would be able to get Eddy Curry. Had Isiah felt acquiring Curry was a done-deal, I don't think he would have thrown that ridiculous amount of money at Jerome James.
The Francis trade was about getting a star who could play plus adding a tradeable asset.
He wasn't there last season.
If Zeke signed one free agent or traded for one player that actually fit Larry's system and coaching philosophy, I might agree with you. And if you can tell me how a team with four guards who have to dominate the ball will work anywhere, send Zeke your resume.
I get sick of every dumbass journalist that cites the Knicks payroll as evidence of incompetence...
For the last ign time...they don't care about payroll...they would carry a 200 million payroll if that is what it took to win. It's freaking NY...you don't cut payroll and rebuild in NY.
You want to hear some pissed off fans? Then go to the Garden when they have a 20 million dollar payroll and still have the leagues highest avg ticket price.
You know why he signed Jerome James to a big contract? Because he can.
You know why he traded for Curry and then signed him to that contract? Becuase he can.
You want to know why he has a 125 million payroll? Because he ing can.
Is it sickeningly excessive? Yes...but that's the NY market for you, and NY takes a perverse pride in that sort of thing...particularly during down years.
You do not rebuild in NY like you do anywhere else...NY is not San Antonio...it's not even LA. It's New York...see, Yankees.
Jamstone...my bad on Sweetney...and compared to his other picks...King sucked.
He doesn't want 4 guards that have to dominant the ball...
He wants 2 guards that have to dominate the ball...along with KG or LBJ...or both...and he's got the contracts to do it...He also wants rebounding and defense...well LB is supposed to take care of the D...and rebounding isn't that easy to come by.
He's also a players GM...which doesn't hurt when guys likes LBJ or KG are making trade demands...
For the record...I think his days in NY are numbered...but that's because of a lack of wins...not because of their payroll or some kind of failure to trim it, that was never the plan, it will never be the plan in NY, at least not publicly, and anyone who cites that as proof of incompetence needs their head removed from their ass.
Just because Isiah was willing to trade for him doesn't mean that any other GM would be dumb enough to. The only reason Orlando took him is because TMac was going to phone in the rest of the season if they hadn't traded him. Living in Houston I can tell you that next to one was crying when they shipped his ass out of here. And something tells me that Orlando isn't going to lose any sleep on pulling the trigger on this deal.
He's pulling down max money through '09, which means it's going to be a long time before he looks attractive as an expiring contract, and if he stays to form he'll wind up in Larry's dog house in matter of months. One of his main ing points in Houston was the slow down pace of Jeff Van Gundy's offense, and Larry Brown's system ain't all that different. There are players who benefit from change of scenery but Francis isn't one of them. He hasn't been happy in the last two places he's landed, and I will be shocked if he so much as cracks a smile while he's in New York. But I would be even more surprised if there is any GM out there (aside from Zeke) who would jump for that kind cry baby with that kind of contract. He's tradeable in the sense that you might be able to talk someone into taking him to balance out a big deal with his contract, but no one in there right mind is going to pick up a phone specifically looking to get him, and we'll see just how much he plays after he pisses Brown off.
No matter how big the market size, you still only get one MLE and he wasted the whole thing on ing Jerome James
No matter how big the market size, you still only get one MLE and he wasted the whole thing on ing Jerome James
Yet still added Steve Francis, Jalen Rose and Eddie Curry...
Figure it out.
At least you end up with a guy who can ball and who has a name. A team like the Knicks doesn't have to worry as much about their lottery years since they can still make $ regardless. What matters is when your team is in Minnesota or Cleveland and is trying to survive.
Sure, it's because of Nazr that Hawks and knicks sucked.
I didn't say he is a great player but that he is better than Lee and he was 23 when Brown traded him.
He don't turn Sweetney into Curry.
The deal was mainly Curry for Sweetney + an unprotected first + rights to swap picks in 07.
Trading an unprotected first (and the swap in 07 can be very painfull for knicks too) for a player like Curry is a bad move when you are in a rebuiding mode that is to say when you have chances to get a top3 pick.
Curry is young and very talented but he has a bad work ethic, he can't stay in shape, he is a poor rebounder, he has an heart condition and he is a poor defender.
The Francis trade is greta talent wise for NY but it makes no sense to have Marbury, Francis, Crawford and Nate Robinson on a same team. It's 4 guards who main quality is scoring, ther are only one ball in BB.
I've never said Knicks aren't talented.
Knicks roster isn't balanced and it's not Larry Brown fault.
Knicks best swing defender is Quentin Richardson !
Knicks best paint defender is Malik Rose !
Brown can't do miracles.
Marbury was so good that Suns traded him. Marbury is though but he is a ballhog and he isn't a leader. Chemistry issues come from the roster Thomas has built, it's not related with Brown.
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