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, Pop yells at EVERYONE.
Maybe not in your organization. Down here, Pop runs things on the court and on the bench. But, you're probably right about the yelling anyway. Pop has myriad ways of getting his point across. He really doesn't yell that much outside the locker room (at least not at his players). I've heard more than one of them say it's not Pop's yelling that you have to worry about...it's when he gets really quiet and quits talking to you at all...then, be very afraid. The first to say this was David Robinson. I heard Malik say it, too.
, Pop yells at EVERYONE.
If Popavein were coaching, Ben would never have refused to re-enter the game, because Pop would already have gone ballistic over the same lackadaisical effort that had Ben so pissed off.
Wow, it's hard to picture Pop in an environment where he couldn't yell at everyone. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as obnoxious Jamstone, I honestly wasn't aware that Big Ben had that kind of pull with management.
Still, knowing what I know of Pop I'm not convinced he wouldn't have hit Ben with every curse word in the Serbian language even if it did mean the unemployment line.
He doesn't. I don't know where JamStone is getting this stuff, but Ben's power is exactly what you'd expect from the team leader and co-captain, no more and no less. IOW, people listen to him, but he does NOT call the shots; Davidson and Dumars do.
Pop yells at his players who don't give maximum effort. When Ben is on the court, he gives maximum effort. Ben was pissed at Flip for pulling him out of the game when he did and for calling sets where he never touches the ball on the offensive end.
And, bdubya is right that Ben would likely not refuse to go back into the game for a coach like Pop.
But, that also shows you why Pop would not yell at Ben Wallace. Ben won't NOT play hard. That's when Pop gets mad.
Ben gets upset when his teammates don't play hard on defense, when his team doesn't share the basketball. That's why Ben was pissed off in the Orlando game. And, that's why Pop and Ben would not be in that position.
And, back to my earlier point, Pop coddles his star players. And, my earlier examples (comforting Tim Duncan in an NBA finals game and letting Eva Longoria fly on the team plane) demonstrate that as much.
And, I'm sorry, but Ben Wallace does have a lot of pull with his team. And, he is one of the main reasons Rick Carlisle got fired. Not the only reason, but certainly one of the main reasons. Joe Dumars even intimated in interviews that it wasn't his idea to fire Rick Carlisle when he did. Carlisle somehow ticked off Bill Davidson. But, Carlisle also lost the respect of his players, most specifically Ben Wallace.
And, if 90% of any other player in the NBA refused to go back into the game, that player would be fined, suspended, or otherwise reprimanded by the team. Ben Wallace was not and will not be. That is more pull than just a team leader and captain.
Pop does allow a lot for all the players not just the stars. I believe he is very laxed when it comes to allowing family to travel on road trips, not just eva. I have also been at games where Tim, tony, and Manu have not come out showing great effort and Pop benches them. However I have also been at games where Tim, or more usually Manu or Tony get benched for missing a rotation or going under a screen when they were instructed to go over.
I will also back jamstone on his other point about star power. If Tim wanted something it would happen. Just like when malik and AD got shipped out you will never convince me that tim did not allow that to happen. Or Tony getting re-signed, both Pop and Tim went and spoke with Holt about that situation. The stars have power like it or not.
I can understand Bens frustration this team became successfull by preaching and playing defense. Now for the first time he has a coach that does not stress defense first. That is a frustrating situation even for a class act like Ben.
Not contesting any of that. But, you will never see Tim Duncan refusing to go into a game (except when he was imitating AI and he was kidding). That is the epitomy of unprofessional behavior on the basketball court and outside Tim's (or Pop's) realm. If you do see it, I'll eat my hat.
Look guys, there's nothin' wrong with Flip, nothin' wrong with Ben, nothin' wrong with the Pistons as a team.
Just a couple comments ..........
If Duncan had done the same thing Ben did ............ Pop would have been powerless to do anything about it. What are you gonna do, sit Duncan and suspend him for the Playoffs? "Oh yeah, I'm real powerful, My name is Coach Pop ........ I'll lose home court advantage in the playoffs, and possibly a 1st round series because I have to prove that I'm in charge!" Whatever, get real y'all!
He could have yelled and screamed, like he does at Tony Parker, it wouldn't have mattered. So everybody get off Pop's d*ck, OK!? Y'all act like Pop would have slapped Michael Jordan or somethin' if he'd done the same.
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Also, somebody said, ................. if you guys had Flip Saunders, you'd lose in the first round. Is that person actually suggesting that Detroit is going to lose to Philly or Chicago?
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Lastly, about coaching and leadership ......... it starts from the top. Nobody here doubts how good Joe Dumars is. He's a man's man. And we in Detroit feel equally about Coach Pop .
Detroit and San Antonio are the 2 best run organizations in basketball, probably in all of professional sports. Yet, each has a different style of leadership. In San Antonio, I see you guys have having very mild-mannered players. That's why you have to have a very hard-nosed coach like Pop. And for the very same reason, you couldn't maintain guys like Steven Jackson on your team.
In Detroit, he have very hard-nosed, and hard-head players, who for the most part police themselves. That's why LB didn't work out. We needed a guy like Flip. And that's why a guy like Darko who wasn't self motivating couldn't work out.
In the end, you still have 2 very good teams, and whatever is needed to get the job done, the organizations do. And that's all that matters in the end.
larry brown was a new coach for the pistons so having a nerw coach does not make much of a diffrence to pistons they actually want it more now to prove to every1 it wasn't just larry brown who won them the le it was also them!
I agree that for a player to refuse to go back into the game ain't right; but this was a case of somebody doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Ben has already admitted it was a mistake, and adding any punishment on top of that would be pointless. Yeah, most coaches probably would, just to say "RESPECT MY AUTHORI-TAH!!", but I credit Flip for knowing that's not necessary in this case. He's not an ass-kicking kind of coach, and with this team, he doesn't NEED to be. There's ZERO danger of this becoming a pattern, or a problem, or anything other than a single loss at a time the team can afford one. Maybe 90% of the players in the league would have been fined or suspended for such a move, but Ben's not in that 90%, and there's no need for Flip to pretend otherwise.
Maybe I don't know the whole story, but Pop would never coddle a player that even tried to refuse to enter a game. Period. He might get fired, but he's not going to be too intimidated by the prospect of losing his job to tell Ben Wallace to get into the game. Ben Wallace may be a captain, but he's a role player, and carries a FRACTION of the clout Tim Duncan does, so comparing the two in a similar situation is stupid. Duncan would never refuse to enter a game, which is another reason why Wallace is nowhere near his peer.
Now, THAT I agree with. 100%.
The argument was never that Tim Duncan would not have refused to go back into the game.
The argument was that if Ben Wallace refused to go in the game with Pop as head coach, Pop wouldn't be able to do anything, just like Flip couldn't do anything.
No there are all sorts of variables involved with the hypothetical. First, as mentioned, if Pop was the coach, Ben probably would not ever likely refuse to go back into a game. Ben refusing to go back into the game is more of an indictment of Flip's control over the team than it says anything about Pop. Also, as I mentioned, Pop gets upset when his players don't play hard during the game. It doesn't matter that Pop has pulled Tim or Manu or Tony out of a game when they haven't played hard. That's not analagous to Ben refusing to go back into the game. Ben plays hard when he's in the game. That's not the issue.
I agree that it was unprofessional and disrespectful for Ben not to go back into the game.
The arguments being made that Tim Duncan would never do that has nothing to do with what the reaction Pop would have if he were Detroit's coach. It doesn't. I just said that if Ben refused to go back in the game, Pop wouldn't have been able to do anything either. And, I don't think Pop would have yelled at him.
And, I read somewhere that wives generally don't get to fly on the Spurs team plane. Eva has been an exception, not a rule. And, let's remember Eva is not a "wife." She's a girlfriend. I'd be surprised if any other wife other than maybe Amy has been allowed to fly with the team. Again, showing how Pop coddles his stars.
Taking a player out doesn't show Pop is hard or tough on his stars. Now, if Pop ever got in Duncan's face and started cursing him out during a game, then maybe I could see Pop yelling at Ben. Has Pop ever singled out Tim during the game and started cursing him out? And, then explain why Pop had to put his arms around Duncan and on his leg when Duncan was sulking and pouting on the bench with his head down in the NBA finals late in a blowout game. If any other Spurs player pouted like that or was sulken, hunched down on the bench, I doubt Pop would go over there for a pep talk and a shoulder to cry on. Pop understand what Tim Duncan is to the Spurs team. He handled that situation very delicately because Duncan is the star of the team. Neither Flip or Pop could really get into Ben's face over an act of insubordination.
Then stop comparing any situation with Wallace to any situation with Duncan. Don't mistake the fact that Wallace is in a contract year for actual leadership clout, because if Wallace were under contract for the next five years, his ass would be a few grand lighter today. Perhaps there's a Dumars Dictum that states that Ben is to be softballed until they can get his signature, in which case any coach would have been unable to get Ben off the bench.
Since, however, we are speaking in hypotheticals, based upon personality, Pop would have gotten Ben on the floor or sent him to the locker room in that situation. It doesn't help Flip's reputation that the situation happened at all.
Why not compare Duncan to Ben??? I'm not comparing their skills or abilities. I'm comparing the fact that each is their respective team's franchise player and star. And, the point of the argument is how a difference coach would react to their star franchise player refusing to go back into the game. There's a justifiable comparison in why I brought up Tim Duncan. Don't get all offended by a comparison. I didn't say Ben is as good as Duncan. Some Spurs fans get all offended just by Duncan's name being brought up. Chill out.
Tim Duncan neither has the personality or the balls to defy Pop. It would never happen. Everyone knows that.
And, sure Ben's contract situation probably played a role why Flip didn't do anything and why the Pistons didn't fine or suspend Ben. But, it's still my opinion that Pop wouldn't have done anything either, regardless of Ben's contract situation. He wouldn't have got in Ben's face. He wouldn't have yelled at him or cursed him out. He wouldn't have sent Ben to the lockers. No matter how you view Ben Wallace, he is the Detroit Pistons. I'll reiterate that I don't like the fact Ben holds as much pull as he does and can pull a stunt like that. I already said what Ben did was unprofessional and disrespectful. But, Pop would not have been able to do anything differently than Flip did in how he handled it.
i think it is more that Tim Duncan has no reason to defy Pop, they get along great. Pop knows his star rises and sets with Duncan.
Exactly why Flip didn't do anything to Ben when Ben refused to enter the game. The Pistons' success is heavily reliant on Ben Wallace's performance on the court.
I disagree; I don't for a minute think Flip was powerless to do anything about it; I think he CHOSE to let it slide (I doubt Pop would have). Big difference. I don't doubt that if Flip wanted to bench Ben for a game, or fine him, that Joe D would have backed him up, and I SURE AS don't think Ben would have fought against whatever Flip decided.
That's downright disrespectful, don't you think?
Sure, Duncan is a better player than Ben Wallace. But Ben Wallace is no less important to the Pistons than Duncan is to the Spurs.
In fact, I would go as far as to say, (at least on the surface), it appears that Duncan could be replaced by another top notch player, ala Kevin Garnett, and the Spurs would still roll along fine due to the strong influence of Pop. I don't see Duncan as a strong charismatic leader. It doesn't mean he's a bad person, or bad player, or anything like that. Pop is the Leader of the Spurs, and the only irreplaceable piece is Pop under the current formula for success.
Detroit doesn't have a coach that needs to do that ........... Ben Wallace polices the locker room, and holds everyone accountable.
The point that I was tryin' to make is that in San Antonio some things work ......... In Detroit, it's handled another way. If Pop were the coach of the Pistons, he wouldn't bench Ben Wallace, because he knows that he wouldn't need to. He might bench Rasheed Wallace, or Rip Hamilton, because they don't have the credibility that Ben does.
Pop is in my opinion a better coach than Flip. But to suggest that Pop is a better coach solely because he screams at players and is a hard-ass, is speculative to say that least.
Swith this topic to the recycle bin.
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