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let me tell you somethin......Pop will always base his lineup based on matchups.....he's that good a coach...power to him....
Bottomline, this team needs another clutch shooter....
lets give Dev first shot to prove his worth......
I think you mean duplication instead of duplicity--but I agree that Brown should get a shot at some minutes at small forward. He's a better shotmaker than Bowen and plays pretty damn good defense himself. He might be a tad short against some of the taller 3s, but I think he'd work well there and that would eliminate the pile-up of guards.
Actually, I think we have several people that could play both the 2 & 3 positions (Barry, Manu, Brown) and could be used interchangeably to keep a high octane bunch on the floor at all times.
let me tell you somethin......Pop will always base his lineup based on matchups.....he's that good a coach...power to him....
Bottomline, this team needs another clutch shooter....
lets give Dev first shot to prove his worth......
I am 100% behind this move...but not just to get Brown playing time. I've been in favor of moving Bruce to the bench since last season. I do not think his ability has diminished, I do not think what happened against LA was a weakness that was discovered in his game.
I think his age and the brutal task he has night in and night out caught up with him, he is 33-34 years old.
Bruce can be effective off the bench, he is very effective off the bench, he was pretty much a bench player prior to coming to the Spurs.
He can have the same type of impact off the bench that any great bench player can have...but from a defensive perspective. He's done it before. Riley was willing to give him a fairly nice contract to do that off the Heat Bench. Bruce really has nothing left to prove as a starter, he doesn't have the offensive game, stats, or superstar qualities to ever win DPOY...but he has proven he can start for an NBA champion, and he has proven he is 1st team All NBA D.
I think it's a good move, I think Devin Brown will flourish with the minutes, I think Bowen will be much more effective(offensively and defensively) at playoff time.
And I don't think Devin's size will be anymore of a problem than Bruce's size was..Bruce is only an inch taller right? Devin will probably be able to match up against guys like Artest a lot better than Bowen. You need to hold the threat of Bowen over Devin's head though...if he lets up on D you don't hesitate to yank him for Bruce, or even start Bruce over him every once in a while.
We'll be much stronger team come playoff time with this move. And I don't think Manu and Barry should start together...We need a proven offensive spark off the bench or else we repeat the Hedo issue from last season and have to around with confidence issues when we are trying to win an NBA le, it has to either be Manu or Barry, since we know they can do it and not flake out over it. Manu deserves to start for this team...he just kicked Pop and Duncan's butts to prove it. I do think Manu and Barry should see a lot of minutes on the floor together though, and I think they will, I think we'll see them running the 1 and 2 together often this season.
Brown's weakness is not defense, he's actually a solid on the ball defender and OK help defender. His main weakness is dribbling and passing, not especially good at either. Pretty good shooter, somewhat streaky. Overall, simply not ready to take over Bowen's position, since Bowen is arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA and still a good shot at the corner three.
But more minutes this year? Absolutely.
If Bruce can be effective of the bench...so can Brown.
Ther is no doubt, we'we got pluses and minuses.
But I'd rather have Brown and Barry destroing the second squad of the others team.
Leave Bowen in what he does best. Slowing down the other teams superstars on guard and small forward positions
Guarding the pick-and-roll was not the major reason for the Spurs downfall. It was because the Spurs couldn't hit an outside shot when they needed to. Of course, that could be viewed as another reason to play Brown more.
I don't see Pop starting Brown over Bowen. Bowen helps set the defensive tone early in the game. Also, it's already a big jump for Brown to be in the main rotation (so we project).
The Spurs lost to the Lakers in no small part because of insufficient frontcourt help for Tim Duncan. And yes, freeing up Bryant with screen rolls was successful for the Lakers as well. As we saw in the 2003 playoffs the Spurs could be successful against the O'Neal-Bryant Lakers whenever Bowen could stay on Bryant for most Laker offensive possessions. The Lakers made a good adjustment in 2004, but that was due to their addition of Evil and of course the Spurs' replacement of DRob and Rose with Radosoft and Horry.
I keep seeing a lot of posts about how Brown is too inexperienced. May I remind you that this was the same rap against Manu and Parker when they were inserted into the lineup?
You gain experience from playing. I think you can see a lot of good development in Brown and by the end of the season, especially in the playoffs, I thought he was a good contributor.
Whether Brown starts is up to Pop and I believe he will make the right decision. I think we will see a lot of interchanging these players in the 2& 3 slots (Manu, Barry and Brown) when we need shooting.
I'd be open to this as a midseason adjustment, but right now I don't think there's any reason to make a drastic move. I am intrigued by the idea of limiting Bowen's first half minutes to keep him fresh for the fourth quarter.
Another reason this makes sense is Devin is a much better rebounder than Bowen. Devin, if he starts, can probably go out there and get you six boards a game. With the loss of the 6'10 Hedo from the starting lineup, rebounding will be the one thing they miss. Devin can make that up.
I don't think Brown is ready to start. Like another poster said, I like Brown's energy off the bench to destroy 2nd teamers. We need another young sparkplug off the bench, since Manu is starting this year. Brown fills that role perfectly. As for his fearlessness vs LA in the playoffs last year, I remember a similar performance by Antonio Daniels in the 2001 playoffs, and he tried to start a few games the next year and flaked out.
Playoff Stats
G Min 2pt 3 pt FT Rebounds PPG
Brown 9 14.4 18-37 .486 6-10 .600 10-17 .588 2.00 5.8
Bowen:10 29.8 23-63 .365 11-29 .379 3-13 .231 2.90 6.0
There are a lot of things these stats don't tell (defensive stops for example) but I thought they might keep the interest up in this debate. For Brown, the first playoff series was almost nothing because he only averaged 3 minutes and had almost no stats. You can also argue that Bowen's 3 pt stats are more relevant because they are based on a much larger base number of attempts.
One thing I don't like that Bowen has turned to is trying to have an all-around offensive game. I would love it if he would JUST shoot threes or pass. I hate seeing him dribble the ball or try to create off of a drive. That isn't his game and it doesn't really help anything.
If Bowen plays like he did during the 2003 championship run, meaning just hit threes and play good D ... then I'd be all for him keeping his starting job. But I think he hurts the team when he goes into games looking to score off the dribble.
Yes, keep some people in the game who can dribble...along with free throw shooting the Spurs of the past couple of years have had some of the worst ball handlers/scoring off the dribble players in the league...I mean who doesn't say "oh no" when you see Bowen, Rose, Jackson, Horry, Willis, Hedo, Rasho, even TD take off on a dribbling turnover fantasy trip?
Brown Parker Ginobili would be an interesting starting 5.
IMO, this would be good a good move if things arent going well.
BUT, I would still put the position up for compe ion.
I share TIMVP's dislike of Bowen trying to become a 10 point a game player.
Shoot threes. Play D. get your 6 9 points a game, shut down the best shooter or wing player on the other team, and youll be alright.
I don't have a problem with bowen improving on the offensive end, he probably isn't going to get better defensively.
However he should be selective about what he works on, he doesn't need to work on driving it should just be jumpshot after jumpshot.
Extend his range to the full way around the perimetre. Work on a midranger and get those free throws happening.
If he can accomplish that he will be a prefect compliment to tims game.
Yeah, towards the end of last season Bruce tended to pass up his open corner threes so he could upfake and drive baseline where he would then throw the ball away. I'll take the chance on the three, thanks.
jr
Exactly. I want him shooting that three. I've never seen him make a good pass off of a penetrating move, so what he's doing off the dribble can't really be called "creating". It's more like getting in the way.
Hit threes and D up.
Someone will replace Bowen eventually, but they'll have to be as consistent or better on defense first.
Haven't seen that from Devin yet.
Kobe just shot over Devin a la Antonio Daniels, so pick your poison.
Just a little update ...
So far in preseason, Brown is averaging 11.6 points, 6.8 rebounds, and 2.0 assists in 24.6 minutes per game.
If you put a player next to Rasho and Tim that can go out and get you seven boards a game, that would be a huge plus. The Spurs would be the best rebounding team in the league by far, especially considering you have Ginobili getting 4-5 boards a game himself.
This move is making more and more sense.
Sure, if you want a tired and ineffective Manu.
Brown has played well, but he still hasn't refined his defensive skills to the point where he can successfully guard great swingmen for long stretches at a time. Manu can stay in front of those players, but since he's played constantly for two years and many feel he performs best at 28-30 minutes per game (and that's not guarding the opponents best), you're taking a chance. Manu has enough to think about. He's at his best when he can roam some and play the passing lanes. He expends a lot of energy out there. He doesn't need a greater workload.
The job can be Devin's when he becomes a great defender. He's going to have to be better at guarding the league's best swingmen. When that happens, I'll consider him the best choice. His offense and rebounding is simply superior to Bowen's, but Bruce's defense is still needed.
Bowen is going to be more effective as a starter, and there are still going to be plenty of minutes for Brown.
How did you conclude that?Brown has played well, but he still hasn't refined his defensive skills to the point where he can successfully guard great swingmen for long stretches at a time.
How do you figure? Pop says he doesn't want to use Barry/Manu at the point.there are still going to be plenty of minutes for Brown.
Swingspots = 96 minutes
With conservatives estimates of 28 minutes per game for Manu, Barry and Bowen, that leaves only 12 more minutes.
Brown guarded Kobe better than Bowen did. What more evidence do you need? Of course he's not on Bowen's level, but he's still classified as a "good" defender.
And starting Brown wouldn't change anything Manu does. Brown would take the more difficult defensive assignment just like Bowen would. In fact, starting Brown would only help Manu. The offense would be much smoother and much faster, which makes Manu even more effective.
1. Somebody is going to get hurt. It always happens, and other players get more minutes because it always happens. If Beno doesn't miss some time this season it will be big surprise. When that happens, Barry will get more minutes at the point and that will free up time for Brown.
2. Pop has options if he needs to inject some offense into the lineup. If Bowen starts off slow and the opponent's best swing player sucks, Brown could certainly see some more minutes.
3. I simply can't imagine that Barry will get 28 minutes per game unless he's forced to play backup point. I can see him getting 22-24 minutes. But again, you would probably have a better idea of what Pop is going to do than I do. But I still think Barry will play less than 28 minutes.
4. 12 minutes a game seems significant to me. I think he'll get at least that.
5. If Brown plays well, Pop will find a way to get him minutes even if he doesn't start. As we've seen in the past, Pop isn't afraid to give younger players minutes over proven veterans if those younger players perform well.
By watching him last season. Unless he's improved significantly over the summer, I'll stick by that.How did you conclude that?
I think he's a solid defender with the potential to become a very good defender, but last season he often got beat one-on-one. It has nothing to do with his athleticism and everything to do with his ability to anticipate. He'll become a better defender with time. He just needs some more seasoning.
Again, you see the team almost every day so you know what's going on. But based upon what I've seen, I'll stick with Bowen as the starter for now. By the end of the season, Devin could be the starter if he makes big strides.
You should probably wait to watch him this season before concluding anything then. He worked hard this summer on defense and perimeter shooting. I'm not in favor of replacing Bowen with him in the starting lineup. I just was checking to see if you were assuming things just because of last season.By watching him last season. Unless he's improved significantly over the summer, I'll stick by that.
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