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  1. #26
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    One good thing about you: logically, you can't say that Bush has done anything that is wrong or a sin since you don't believe that right and wrong or sin exist.
    I don't believe in magic,
    I don't believe in I-ching,
    I don't believe in bible,
    I don't believe in tarot,
    I don't believe in Hitler,
    I don't believe in Jesus,
    I don't believe in Kennedy,
    I don't believe in Buddha,
    I don't believe in mantra,
    I don't believe in Gita,
    I don't believe in yoga,
    I don't believe in kings,
    I don't believe in Elvis,
    I don't believe in Zimmerman,
    I don't believe in Beatles,
    I just believe in me.
    And that's reality.

  2. #27
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    A report from the Government Accounting Office takes a big bite out of the Bush clique’s pretense of legitimacy. This powerful and probing report takes a hard look at the election of 2004 and supports the contention that the election was stolen. The report has received almost no coverage in the national media. CNN said the Judiciary Committee got more than 57,000 complaints after Bush’s claimed re-election. Many were made under oath in a series of statements and affidavits in public hearings and investigations carried out in Ohio by the Free Press and other groups seeking to maintain transparent elections.

    Online Journal.com reported that the GAO report stated that “some of [the] concerns about electronic voting machines have been realized and have caused problems with recent elections, resulting in the loss and miscount of votes.”

    This is the only democratic nation that permits private partisan companies to count and tabulate the vote in secret, using privately-held software. The public is excluded from the process. Rev. Jesse Jackson and others have declared that “public elections must not be conducted on privately-owned machines.” The makers of nearly all electronic voting machines are owned by conservative Republicans.

    The chief executive of Diebold, one of the major suppliers of electronic voting machines, Warren “Wally” O’Dell, went on record in the 2004 campaign vowing to deliver Ohio and the presidency to George W. Bush.

    In Ohio, Bush won by only 118,775 votes out of more than 5.6 million cast. Honest election advocates contend that O’Dell’s statement to hand Ohio’s vote to Bush still stands as a clear indictment of an apparently successful effort to steal the White House.

    Some of the GAO’s findings are: 1. Some electronic voting machines “did not encrypt cast ballots or system audit logs, and it was possible to alter both without being detected.” In short, the machines; provided a way to manipulate the outcome of the election. In Ohio, more than 800,000 votes were cast on electronic voting machines, some registered seven times Bush’s official margin of victory.

    2: the report further stated that: “it was possible to alter the files that define how a ballot looks and works, so that the votes for one candidate could be recorded for a different candidate.” Very many sworn statements and affidavits claim that did happen in Ohio in 2004.

    Next, the report says, “Vendors installed uncertified versions of voting system software at the local level.” The GAO found that falsifying election results without leaving evidence of doing so by using altered memory cards could easily be done.

    The GAO additionally found that access to the voting network was very easy to compromise because not all electronic voting systems had supervisory functions protected by password. That meant access to one machine gave access to the whole network. That critical finding showed that rigging the election did not take a “widespread conspiracy” but simply the cooperation of a small number of operators with the power to tap into the networked machines. They could thus alter the vote totals at will. It therefore was no big task for a single programmer to flip vote numbers to give Bush the 118,775 votes.

    Another factor in the Ohio election was that access to the voting network was also compromised by repeated use of the same user ID, coupled with easy-to-guess passwords. Even amateur hackers could have gotten into the network and changed the vote.

    System locks were easily picked, and keys were easy to copy, so gaining access to the system was a snap.

    One digital machine model was shown to have been networked in such a rudimentary manner that if one machine experienced a power failure, the entire network would go down. That is too fragile a system to decide the presidency of the United States.

    Problems obviously exist with security protocols and screening methods for vendor personnel.

    The GAO study clearly shows that no responsible business would operate with a computer system as flimsy, fragile and easily manipulated as the one used in the 2004 election.

    These findings are even more damning when we understand the election in Ohio was run by a secretary of state who also was co-chairman of Bush’s Ohio campaign. Far from the conclusion of anti-fraud skeptics, the GAO’s findings confirm that the network, which handled 800,000 Ohio votes, was vulnerable enough to permit a handful of purposeful operatives to turn the entire election by means of personal computers using comparatively simple software.

    One Ohio campaign operative, Tom Noe, a coin dealer, was indicted Oct. 27 for illegally funneling $45,400 to Bush by writing checks to others, who then wrote checks to Bush’s re-election campaign, allegedly dodging the $2,000 limit on contributions by an individual.

    “It’s one of the most blatant and excessive finance schemes we have encountered,” said Noel Hillman, section chief of the U.S. Department of Justice’s public integrity section, as quoted in the Kansas City Star.

    In the 2000 election, Florida was the key; in the 2004 election, Ohio was the key.

    The complete GAO report can be read here in PDF format
    I will look into this. Honestly, the hard part for me is why so many elected democrats have gone on record as saying that Bush won the election, won Ohio and won the popular vote. It appears to me that this is evidence produced by hostile witnesses, a very strong type of evidence in my view.
    Also, I am under the impression that even democratically leaning outlets of the mainstream media concede that Bush won the election, won Ohio and won the popular vote. However, as I said I will look into this.

  3. #28
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    [QUOTE=RandomGuy]

    Taxes shouldn't be cut until we have paid off a substantial chunk of our federal debt. The overall federal debt is something like 75% of the size of our GDP, higher than at anytime since WW2. The interest payments on that debt will cause taxes to be higher than they would otherwise be. A certain amount of that debt is a useful thing, and indeed a good thing, but the amount that has been racked up is going to eat us alive in the long run.

    I find it very odd that a lot of people who say they are "conservative" think that borrowing massively to finance government spending is a good idea.



    My money would go to China. Sooner or later they will have to let their currency "float" (more than the extremely small amount they have already) and in that case a yuan-based investment will rise a great deal in dollar terms as our currency falls against it.



    Yup. We have lifevests on boats for a similar reason.



    Pure socialism is as silly as pure capitalism with an ineffective government.



    I agree heartily.

    I happen to think that the best way to permanently reduce that tax rate is to pay off some of that massive debt. The HUNDREDS of billions in interest payments per year could go to much better things.
    makes sense. True capitalism seems like it would be pretty heartless.

    I definitely prefer to have evidence right in front of my face (something tangible and undoubted), like the obvious fact that a social security check clearly helps a widow...., instead of having to rely on what I hope is a logically valid argument (since this relies too much on stuff I either don't know or am not certain of,... extra factors I am unaware of). In the field I am studying, mathematics (I should have my master's degree by the end of the year), we rely on logic completely when we are writing our proofs. But in this type of case, I am a lot more comfortable with something I know for a fact.

    You may be right about investing in China's currency. Like I said before, I'm not an expert. It just seems to me that money invested in their currency would fund their ability to buy products made by Americans. I know that this is indirect, but it seems like it still gets back to us. Plus, it seems like it is safer to invest in the US, instead of developing countries. I certainly could be wrong, but that's just what I was thinking.

    To be honest, I'm definitely on the low end of the wage school and even with my master's I'm going to stay there. So, if my thinking is wrong, I'm hurting myself.

    This is part of what led to me to this decision point: I know for certain that I need and rely upon financial aid while I am in school to help me make ends meet. This is something extremely obvious and apparent to me. It could not be any clearer. The type of "evidence" I have for my economic views is significantly less compelling to me, whether another person considers it anecdotal or not.

    One last thing, I agree with you that advocating deficit spending does not appear conservative. However, my professors appeared to support the view that deficit spending actually was good economic policy. It's kind of like why it's considered a bad idea to overpay on your witholding and get a refund at the end of the year. You have now allowed the government to borrow your money for free and you got no interest off of it. If we only spent what we took in (in tax revenues) we would be investing in our economy a great deal less than we should. We, therefore, are getting less out of it. Plus, not all debts are equal. Nor is having a trade deficit entirely negative. Seems like it has both good and bad points. Debt that stimulates growth could actually be good. Higher marginal tax rates would seem to reduce disposable income which in turn would reduce gdp. It seems like it could be a vicious cycle.

    Finally, doesn't it seem like incentive is a pretty sound concept: does it not seem like raising marginal tax rates decreases one's incentive to work harder and longer. Despite my poverty, my parents do pretty well. My stepmom does not work because it would not benefit them. My dad has told me in the past that he paid half of his income in taxes, living in a heavily taxed area.

  4. #29
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    ^^Well, I have lived in socialist countries. England and Turkey and Germany.
    Some things seem to work well and some what appears to work well really doesn't.
    The state medical system in England sounds great, except, you wait for literally
    years for some types of operations. Doctors can and do refuse to treat people who
    smoke and the medical care is rationed in as much as a person with a terminal
    illness may be sent home and abandoned by the medical profession. These things
    truly do happen.

    Dr. Walter Williams an economist once stated that the national debt was of no
    consequence. He didn't elaborate, but said he was going to write a piece on it
    to explain his statement. As of yet, he hasn't. I wish he would.

    Taxes are a must for any society. Government's must have funds to pay for
    services that they provide. The problem, as I see it, is that the government
    sometimes takes on task that really aren't their responsibility. You spoke of
    Social Security, the English, a Socialist nation have privatized their Social Security
    to great extent. They recognized that the system will collapse of it's own weight.
    The citizens of England have also gone back to purchasing on their own, private
    medical insurance. For the reasons I have spoken of earlier. I had a friend who
    had an shoulder problem but could not get national health to schedule the operation.
    He waited for over a year, finally the same doctor that was to do it under the
    National Health Program did it on a private basis, for which he paid out of pocket.
    Strange isn't it.

    Many U.S. citizens are now paying much more taxes for medicare and social
    security than they do for federal income tax. It is a tax all, regardless of income,
    must pay. But the left leaning society say this is okay, but about income
    taxes. I have yet to understand this mentality.

    Trade deficits. I have yet to figure this out. For many years in the 50's and 60's
    and 70's we ran a trade surplus. Some speak of the weak dollar, but a weak dollar
    would help in world trade, because more nations could afford our products. In the
    early 50's we actually left money in the countries that was owed to us to maintain
    their currency on world markets. We supported Turkey for many years by propping
    up their currency at rate of 9-1 also England in the 50's. Their currency at one
    time had a conversation rate of $4.25 per pound. They devalued their currency to
    $2.40 per pound, again propped up by our country. Trading on the open market
    at the time you could buy pounds at around 1.30 on currency markets. Of course
    the individual going to a bank or money exchange could not get that rate.

    I have rambled in this post and for that I apologize. I saw where you are majoring
    in math. What a brain you must have. Math as I understand it is a base for so
    many fields and your major is in great demand for many companies. You will go
    far. Keep your curiosity, it will serve you well. There is an old saying which
    serves many well and one my Grandfather was quite fond of: Don't believe anything
    you read in the newspaper and only half of what you see. Sounds pessimistic,
    but good advice even in these times.

  5. #30
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    The stupid right-wing red-state dubya-suckers who think binarily, like the simplistic dubya his dumb self, that if you are against dubya/ head/phony war then you must be liberal, a card-carrying democratic, socilaisttic, traitor, communist, and godless.

    Thanks to such stupidity, the right-wing has made America a meaner, nastier, uglier, more intolerant society, and missing 2400+ military lives wasted in Iraq.

    The Repugs have ed up badly, and they will pay badly. Not enough Americans are stupid enough to be fooled a second time when the Rove-slime and bogus fear-mongering starts spewing incessantly in the run-up to the November elections.



  6. #31
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    The stupid right-wing red-state dubya-suckers who think binarily, like the simplistic dubya his dumb self, that if you are against dubya/ head/phony war then you must be liberal, a card-carrying democratic, socilaisttic, traitor, communist, and godless.

    Thanks to such stupidity, the right-wing has made America a meaner, nastier, uglier, more intolerant society, and missing 2400+ military lives wasted in Iraq.

    The Repugs have ed up badly, and they will pay badly. Not enough Americans are stupid enough to be fooled a second time when the Rove-slime and bogus fear-mongering starts spewing incessantly in the run-up to the November elections.


    Boutons, you seem much more reasonable when you are talking about the Spurs. The first couple of lines do not form a complete, grammatically correct sentence. In fact, it just like a lot of name calling.

    All binary thinking is not correct. Surely, while you are typing that thought, you are aware of the blatant contradiction staring you in the face.

    Ad hominem arguments do not impress people interested in the truth of a proposition. They reveal a lot more about the people who make them than they do about whether a particular proposition is true.

    Circular arguments are similarly unimpressive. Assume that relativism is true. Then, those who believe relativism are correct and absolutists are wrong since relativism is true.

    Do you have an MBA from Yale? I am unsure of your qualifications to decide who is smart and who is dumb. You might disagree with him and on certain issues, you might be right. But that does not mean necessarily that you are smarter than he is. It seems to me that you lack the knowledge necessary to make that determination. Why not simply say that you disagree with him on this or that issue and here's why? Often, the reason why someone reverts to an ad hominem attack is because they know their viewpoint is suspect and lacks compelling proof.

    The people who use the intemperate language that you do against their political opponent, in this case Bush, are often people who are extremists and tend to belong to groups such as Moveon.org ...

    Remember that it is the right wing that supports the churches and the outreach to those in need in this country. It is not the wealthy, elite liberals who provide most of the charitable assistance to those in need. I was blessed to be a small part of this: helping start an orphanage in Mexico, provide food and clothing on 8 mission trips to Mexico, helped start a church in this area, .... Remove the Christians and other conservatives from this country and leave all the criminals and the democrats will win elections, but then you will see on earth, the logical consequence of man living without God.

    For at that point, there is not a sufficient logical basis for declaring anything morally right or wrong. Rape, then, logically must become inconvenient, but not morally wrong. This is the logical conclusion of your position. Either abandon your relativist worldview or abandon your view that Bush and conservatives are evil and are sinning...

    In mathematics, we often write proofs using a proof by contradiction method. This is clearly a form of binary reasoning which you object to. But the method is valid since when you call it invalid you are employing the same binary reasoning which you objected to.

    I have no idea who will win the next presidential election, especially since the nominees for each party have not yet been established.

    It is easier to simply cuss at someone and call them names, but it is not effective at convincing others to adopt your views. If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, then why waste your time and my time ...

  7. #32
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
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    It's funny. I'm a graduate student and in certain ways has an influence upon my political thinking: it tends to make me contemplate certain views which might be more "progressive", example more and better financial aid for students., environmental concerns, ...

    However, just as I find myself thinking from that point of view, someone full of hate and venom who assumes the worst about every conservative, someone who wants peace at any price who insults all conservatives and is completely irrational comes across my path. I can't and won't throw away my brain to become more "progressive" and until there are reasonable people who don't assume the worst about all conservatives, aren't hostile to spiritual people, aren't filled with hatred and care about this country's national security, it will be difficult to consider other viewpoints favorably.

    Those of you who consider yourself progressive might want to consider how you address people with whom you are discussing political topics. No doubt many conservatives are not very winsome in their presentation of their viewpoints as well. However, I already know how a conservative thinks. And, this is purely anecdotal, it has been my experience that more progressives are venemous and hostile and loud than conservatives.

    Being a winsome person, not assuming the worst about your political opponents and offering logically sound arguments might go a long way toward moving people to adopt your point of view, if you are a progressive.

    this post is more ghey than teh aids. grow a p3n1s

  8. #33
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    this post is more ghey than teh aids. grow a p3n1s
    So, just when do you graduate 6th grade?

  9. #34
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    this post is more ghey than teh aids. grow a p3n1s

    OG, are you drinking again. Thought you gave it up.

  10. #35
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
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    So, just when do you graduate 6th grade?
    stalker

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