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Aren't we all. *rolls eyes*
I'm really surprised this thread didn't turn into a discussion about Jesse MacBeth, the 21st Century John Kerry "winter soldier."
Aren't we all. *rolls eyes*
Semper Fi!
May 26, 2006
The Investigation
Military Expected to Report Marines Killed Iraqi Civilians
By THOM SHANKER, ERIC SCHMITT and RICHARD A. OPPEL JR.
This article is by Thom Shanker, Eric Schmitt and Richard A. Oppel Jr.
WASHINGTON, May 25 — A military investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, Congressional, military and Pentagon officials said Thursday.
Two lawyers involved in discussions about individual marines' defenses said they thought the investigation could result in charges of murder, a capital offense. That possibility and the emerging details of the killings have raised fears that the incident could be the gravest case involving misconduct by American ground forces in Iraq.
Officials briefed on preliminary results of the inquiry said the civilians killed at Haditha, a lawless, insurgent-plagued city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, did not die from a makeshift bomb, as the military first reported, or in cross-fire between marines and attackers, as was later announced. A separate inquiry has begun to find whether the events were deliberately covered up.
Evidence indicates that the civilians were killed during a sustained sweep by a small group of marines that lasted three to five hours and included shootings of five men standing near a taxi at a checkpoint, and killings inside at least two homes that included women and children, officials said.
That evidence, described by Congressional, Pentagon and military officials briefed on the inquiry, suggested to one Congressional official that the killings were "methodical in nature."
Congressional and military officials say the Naval Criminal Investigative Service inquiry is focusing on the actions of a Marine Corps staff sergeant serving as squad leader at the time, but that Marine officials have told members of Congress that up to a dozen other marines in the unit are also under investigation. Officials briefed on the inquiry said that most of the bullets that killed the civilians were now thought to have been "fired by a couple of rifles," as one of them put it.
The killings were first reported by Time magazine in March, based on accounts from survivors and human rights groups, and members of Congress have spoken publicly about the episode in recent days. But the new accounts from Congressional, military and Pentagon officials added significant new details to the picture. All of those who discussed the case had to be granted anonymity before they would talk about the findings emerging from the investigation.
A second, parallel inquiry was ordered by the second-ranking general in Iraq to examine whether any marines on the ground at Haditha, or any of their superior officers, tried to cover up the killings by filing false reports up the chain of command. That inquiry, conducted by an Army officer assigned to the Multinational Corps headquarters in Iraq, is expected to report its findings in coming days.
In an unusual sign of high-level concern, the commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, flew from Washington to Iraq on Thursday to give a series of speeches to his forces re-emphasizing compliance with international laws of armed conflict, the Geneva Conventions and the American military's own rules of engagement.
( the good General should next fly to the WH/DOJ/CIA give the same speech )
"Recent serious allegations concerning actions of marines in combat have caused me concern," General Hagee said in a statement issued upon his departure. The statement did not mention any specific incident.
The first official report from the military, issued on Nov. 20, said that "a U.S. marine and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb" and that "immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire."
Military investigators have since uncovered a far different set of facts from what was first reported, partly aided by marines who are cooperating with the inquiry and partly guided by reports filed by a separate unit that arrived to gather intelligence and do ent the attack; those reports contradicted the original version of the marines, Pentagon officials said.
One senior Defense Department official who has been briefed on the initial findings, when asked how many of the 24 dead Iraqis were killed by the improvised bomb as initially reported, paused and said, "Zero."
While Haditha was rife with violence and gunfire that day, the marines, who were assigned to the Third Battalion, First Marines, and are now back at Camp Pendleton, Calif., "never took what would cons ute hostile fire of a seriously threatening nature," one Pentagon official said.
Women and children were among those killed, as well as five men who had been traveling in a taxi near the bomb, which killed Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas of El Paso.
Although investigators are still piecing together the string of deaths, Congressional and Pentagon officials said the five men in the taxi either were pulled out or got out at a Marine checkpoint and were shot.
The deaths of those in the taxi, and inside two nearby houses, were not the result of a quick and violent firefight, according to officials who had been briefed on the inquiry.
"This was not a burst of fire, but a sustained operation over several hours, maybe five hours," one official said. Forensic evidence gathered from the houses where Iraqi civilians died is also said to contradict reports that the marines had to overcome hostile fire to storm the homes.
Members of the House and Senate briefed on the Haditha shootings by senior Marine officers, including General Hagee and Brig. Gen. John F. Kelly, the Marine legislative liaison, voiced concerns Thursday about the seriousness of the accusations.
Representative John Kline, a Minnesota Republican who is a retired Marine colonel, said that the allegations indicated that "this was not an accident. This was direct fire by marines at civilians." He added, "This was not an immediate response to an attack. This would be an atrocity."
The deaths, and the role of the marines in those deaths, is being viewed with such alarm that senior Marine Corps officers briefed members of Congress last week and again on Wednesday and Thursday.
The briefings were in part an effort to prevent the kind of angry explosion from Capitol Hill that followed news of detainee abuse by American military jailers at Abu Ghraib prison, which had been quietly under investigation for months before the details of the abuse were leaked to the news media. "If the accounts as they have been alleged are true, the Haditha incident is likely the most serious war crime that has been reported in Iraq since the beginning of the war," said John Sifton, of Human Rights Watch. "Here we have two dozen civilians being killed — apparently intentionally. This isn't a gray area. This is a massacre."
Three Marine officers — the battalion commander and two company commanders in Haditha at the time — have been relieved of duty, although official statements have declined to link that action to the investigation.
Senator John W. Warner, a Virginia Republican who heads the Armed Services Committee, said he expected senators would review investigators' evidence, including photographs by military photographers that Mr. Warner said were "taken as a matter of routine in Iraq on operations of this nature when there's loss of life."
Lawyers who have been in conversations with the marines under investigation stressed the chaotic situation in Haditha at the time of the killings. And they expect that the defense will stress that insurgents often hide among civilians, that Haditha on the day of the shootings was suffering a wave of fluid insurgent attacks and that the marines responded to high levels of hostile action aimed at them.
Much of the area around Haditha is controlled by Sunni Arab insurgents who have made the city one of the deadliest in Iraq for American troops. On Aug. 1, three months before the massacre, insurgents ambushed and killed six Marine snipers moving through Haditha on foot. Insurgents released a video after the ambush that appeared to show the attack, and the mangled and burned body of a dead serviceman. Then, two days later, 14 marines were killed when their armored vehicle was destroyed by a roadside bomb near the southern edge of the city.
The Marines also disclosed this week that a preliminary inquiry had found "sufficient information" to recommend a criminal probe into the killing of an Iraqi civilian on April 26 near Hamandiyah, a village west of Baghdad.
Thom Shanker and Eric Schmitt reported from Washington for this article, and Richard A. Oppel Jr. from Baghdad, Iraq.
Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company
============================
Extremely sad situation for Marines and the US image in the world. But, as the right-wingers here love to signal: "boys will be boys", and "they are our boys (and our dubya), right or wrong"
Can't wait to hear how rummy will handle this one with his usual fog of hair-splitting inanities.
In the week where the WH is trying fog over the head/scooter by violating the spirit of the separation of powers (only respected when the Congressman is a Repug) by sending the Exec branch raiding the Legislative offices (a Dem congressman, naturally), they have the Marines shoot the WH fulll of holes, and further turn the US people against the WH, Repugs, and the phony Iraq war.
^^boutons, I thought would you have posted the NYT story that was in
in the "Express-News" this morning. They have already tried,
convicted and almost sentenced these troops and some of the
folks in Washington is feeding this "information" to the NYT. There
may be some troops who have done something wrong, but it would
be nice if we waited until we got the whole story. I am not going
to hang them till I know the complete story. There are two
paragraphs in the story you posted that tells a whole lot of what
these troops faced:
"Lawyers who have been in conversations with the marines under investigation stressed the chaotic situation in Haditha at the time of the killings. And they expect that the defense will stress that insurgents often hide among civilians, that Haditha on the day of the shootings was suffering a wave of fluid insurgent attacks and that the marines responded to high levels of hostile action aimed at them.
Much of the area around Haditha is controlled by Sunni Arab insurgents who have made the city one of the deadliest in Iraq for American troops. On Aug. 1, three months before the massacre, insurgents ambushed and killed six Marine snipers moving through Haditha on foot. Insurgents released a video after the ambush that appeared to show the attack, and the mangled and burned body of a dead serviceman. Then, two days later, 14 marines were killed when their armored vehicle was destroyed by a roadside bomb near the southern edge of the city."
Until you have walked in their shoes don't be so quick to judge.
Until you have hot lead buzzing around you head, don't be so
quick to judge.
As far as Rummy, I don't think he will cover anything up. There is
no point.
This stuff happens in every war.
"This stuff happens in every war."
Exactly. Inevitability is no excuse. That's one of the reasons starting a ing war is such a crushing responsbility, with repercussions beyond anybody's imagination.
The shrub-in-chief put his own men in a horrible, apparently no-win situation by starting this phony Repug war for bull lies.
dubya/ head/rummy/wolfie/condi/colin should be impeached and serve prison time along with any Marines that are dishonorably discharged and/or imprisoned.
Last edited by boutons_; 05-26-2006 at 03:26 PM.
Although I hardly ever agree with Buttons, I think he has a point.
amazing... I suppose that makes it alright, doesn't it?
Here is another article about the incident from CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...tha/index.html
Pentagon sources: Civilians likely killed without provocation
Photos from scene said to be 'inconsistent' with Marine account
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday. Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the sources said.
The killings reportedly occurred while troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were searching for insurgents who planted a roadside bomb that killed a member of the unit.
The Marines originally had reported that 15 civilians were killed by a roadside bomb in Haditha, a city along the Euphrates River in western Iraq. The Marines later suggested the civilians may have been caught in a firefight.
However, photographs being reviewed by investigators "are inconsistent with how the Marines claim the Iraqis died," according to a military source familiar with the investigation.
An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued. Time Warner is the parent company of Time magazine and CNN.
Last week, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, a decorated retired Marine colonel who is opposed to the war in Iraq, said the investigation of the Haditha deaths would show that the civilian toll was higher than 15 and that the Marines killed them "in cold blood." He said he received his information from U.S. commanders.
"There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," Murtha said. "They actually went into the houses and killed women and children."
The Marine battalion commander and two company commanders have been relieved of their commands and reassigned to staff posts at Camp Pendleton, California.
Separate accusations surfaced earlier this month that Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment killed a civilian near Hamandiya, west of Baghdad, on April 26.
Several Marines from the regiment were sent back to the United States, and Maj. Gen. Richard Zilmer, commander of 1st Marines Expeditionary Force, asked that the Naval Criminal Investigative Service look into allegations made by Iraqis to Marine commanders at a May 1 meeting.
Sen. John Warner, R-Virginia, said Thursday that he would rank both incidents as "very, very serious allegations." There is no timeline set for either investigation, but he expects both to be completed quickly, said Warner, who chairs the Senate Armed Forces Committee.
The two incidents prompted Gen. Michael Hagee, commandant of the Marine Corps, to fly to Iraq on Thursday and speak to Marines about the use of force in a speech led "On Marine Virtue."
"We do not employ force just for the sake of employing force. We use lethal force only when justified, proportional and, most importantly, lawful," Hagee said, according to a copy of his speech released by the Marine Corps. "This is the American way of war. We must regulate force and violence, we only damage property that must be damaged and we protect the non-combatants we find on the battlefield."
Another Haditha massacre witness has come forward:
Washington PostBAGHDAD, Iraq--Witnesses to the slaying of 24 Iraqi civilians by U.S. Marines in the western town of Haditha say the Americans shot men, women and children at close range in retaliation for the death of a Marine lance corporal in a roadside bombing.
Aws Fahmi, a Haditha resident who said he watched and listened from his home as Marines went from house to house killing members of three families, recalled hearing his neighbor across the street, Younis Salim Khafif, plead in English for the lives of himself and his family. ``I heard Younis speaking to the Americans, saying: 'I am a friend. I am good,' '' said Fahmi. ``But they killed him, and his wife and daughters.''
With flimsy evidence like eyewitnesses and video ANYTHING could have happened. We learned that lesson at the Ramadi wedding where guests suddenly whipped out AK's and started shooting Americans! Those crafty insurgents will do anything to cover their tracks. And we're only six months into that "investigation". Time will tell. Time will...z-z-z-z.
It's amazing to me the marines would get prosecuted for this. In an army of any other country, the public would never hear of these incidents.
Unamazingly, there will be a whitewash of the supposed killers and the higher ups who covered up.
whats your point? should the United States army feel justified to commit atrocities like this simply because in other corrupt countries people don't find out about it?
I think I probably missunderstood your point though, what did you mean?
first off, we're not talking abnout the army, we're talking about the marine corps. dont ever throw us in the same mix as the army, whether its good news or bad news.
secondly i believe th point being made is the poster was amazed that news like this gets out for the public to even form an opinion about.
Did I say it made it right?amazing... I suppose that makes it alright, doesn't it?
Those guilty need and should be punished by the full extent of the law, serve time in the brig, be dishonorably discharged and NOT what represents the Marine Corps.
my bad, United States Marines then
I find the fact that the US is willing to admit and inform about its wrong doings (be it Marines or Army) very admirable. I think the US is far ahead of almost every country in that regard. It still, however, does not make the incident excusable (I know nobody was excusing it, I'm just saying).
no, you're right you didn't. However, when you said "This stuff happens in every war" it did seem as though you were trying to dismiss the incident as unimportant byproduct of the war.Did I say it made it right?
Those guilty need and should be punished by the full extent of the law, serve time in the brig, be dishonorably discharged and NOT what represents the Marine Corps.
Every branch of military service has undesirables serving.
My point was that WAR in itself is an atrocity, although a necessary one at times, and innocent people die. That is why I get sowhen I hear like "bring 'em on!", from someone who has no idea what war is like. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy.
There is so much more to it. The thousands of men and women who are pemanently scarred for life by what they've seen and experienced. Nobody comes home the same..nobody.
I know I didn't.
I really don't know much about war, other than what I read in books, which is to say, practically nothing. I do believe however, that as atrocious as a war can be, the military should at the very least hold itself up to the values of the society its fighting to defend, don't you think? I mean, this kind of incident cannot and must not be considered trivial.My point was that WAR in itself is an atrocity, although a necessary one at times, and innocent people die. That is why I get so
There is so much more to it. The thousands of men and women who are pemanently scarred for life by what they've seen and experienced. Nobody comes home the same..nobody.
I know I didn't.
I expect, if and when the guilty are found, they recieve the maximum punishment available (barring some extenuating cir stance).
I concur. This incident should NOT ever be considered trivial. Marines live by a code of honor and those accused, if guilty, did NOT uphold that honor.
I meant what I said. I guess you are saying something similar here:
I'm sure the US military would love to cover this up if they could have kept it purely within the military since there is already an investigation into a coverup, but were forced into owning up after info come from the Iraqis, journalists, etc.
Exactly the same with Abu Ghraib-ass,
the NSA domestic spying crimes contravening FISA,
the extraordinary rendition to foreign countries,
the secret use of foreign prisons.
NONE of these exposes hurt the anything Repugs politically. Of course, the US, thanks to the Repugs, has abandoned the moral highground that much of the world, including US citizens, expects the US to occupy. The Repugs are truly repugnant mother ers ing up everthing they touch.
The sooner they are out of power, starting this November, the better for the world.
for those of you questioning what happened, i suggest you watch, if you get a chnace, the do entary on the A&E channel
its called combat diary/lima company, or something along those lines. its about a reserve marine unit that went to iraq for 7 months in 05. it helps let civilians understand where this rage comes from. im not saying that just bc youre mad its ok to kill innocents, but this do entary shows just how hard it is over htere and how if you hesitate, even for a second, youre dead.
alot of you get to sit back here and debate and second guess . but you dont have a chance of dying. yeah you could get ran over by a bus or some other happy bull like that but i mean you dont ever have to bust down a door and wonder whats on the other side. until you do, shut the up. im sure ill get flamed for this but i dont care. bc of me and others like me, you have this right. if you dont like it, move to ing russia, canada, cuba or for all i care move to goddamn iraq.
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