Steve Nash is Not a Top 10 Player in this League

[TheSanityAnnex]

If memory serve, your Kings were one win away from the Conference Finals when Webber went down. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it happened, in Dallas in game six.

That means you had a game seven at home, with Bibby, Divac, Peja, Terkoglu (sp?), Christie, Clark, Jackson, Gerald Wallace... come on. That's plenty of talent to win one game, at home.

One game? Are you telling me Bibby couldn't will his team to one win at home vs. a defenseless Dallas squad? But I thought he owned Nash?

Webber was the heart and soul of that team. That is liking asking Dallas, at that time, to win without Dirk.

You said that both teams dealt with injuries, and my point was to show you that they were at different times of the year and therefore should not be compared. Amare was out for the whole year and the team knew it. Webber went down in game 6 and the next year came back and ruined the chemistry the Kings had worked on all year. Amare did a good thing by not forcing his comeback too soon.

[pussyface]

billscarnagie you have wasted my time with that response.
beating weak la teams in 7 is impressive but SWEEPING memphis isnt because the last two years a completely different group of young players (like jwill and posey) wearing Grizz jerseys got swept by ELITE teams in SA/last yrs Suns squad?

This years grizz were veteran led and won 49 games, more than either LA team. Beating any team in the NBA 4 times in a row in the playoffs is never short of impressive, much less a quality one. some even rated the grizz so highly as to predict they would win the series and it "wouldn't go 7," in the words of Scottie Pippen.


being a "really, really good point gaurd" does not make a league MVP.
if Dirk went down and Terry started averaging 20/10 I would not call him an MVP candidate. You are right, dirk would still be the "top dog"/best player on the team.

If it is redundant to provide real life examples of what you are talking about as I did in my previous post, than I guess you have me there.

[atxrocker]

off topic i hope amare comes back fully recooperated. i really dig his game. before the injury the guy was an absolute beast.

[pussyface]

last year's playoffs led me to believe that amare was nothing less than the best player in the NBA.

[JMarkJohns]

being a "really, really good point gaurd" does not make a league MVP.

if Dirk went down and Terry started averaging 20/10 I would not call him an MVP candidate. You are right, dirk would still be the "top dog"/best player on the team.

Here's the thing. Nash isn't just a really good PG. Anyone who think he's just really good is missing the facts. A Nash led team has led the League in offense for the past five seasons. That's not a coincidense, considering the amount of player turnover both Dallas and Phoenix has had.

If Dirk went down and Terry averaged 20-10, he wouldn't be enough to get them to the Conference Finals. I'm not sure Dallas would make the playoffs without Dirk, so your argument is very flawed.

Fact is, Last year many people questioned Nash by saying "but he has Amare". Well, this year he didn't and they have gone farther this year without him than they did last year with him. This is because of Nash.

He may not be a top-10 player in reguards to pure skill or potential, but on impact of a team, he's easily a top-3 player. He makes everyone better. Don't give me the "Phoenix" system either, but if you knew anything about the Suns, you'd know the system is Steve Nash. D'Antoni has said on many occasions he just lets Nash run the show. Everything you see is Nash. Is is the writer and director of the Suns offense. Everything is based on his play, which is why when Nash struggles, the Suns struggle and why when Nash plays good, the Suns play good. He's the end all, be all of this team. No one player in the League has more responsibility within an offense and no one player in the League can get so much out of so little.

And Yes, I do mean little.

Diaw... say what you want,, but he was a scrub throw in as part of the JJ trade. Phoenix ups have admitted to being surprised at his skills.
Jones... when he got consistant playing time (lost it around March due to injuries and Tim Thomas' acquisition) he was a 14-point, high percentage shooter in his first real year of playing time.
Barbosa... Look at last year's numbers (as a backup to Nash), then look at this year's numbers (as a SG next to Nash).
Tim Thomas... He was traded three times within the last three years and was eventually waived. He's been a career underacheiver and yet is now the best offensive frontcourt player the Suns have.
Bell... solid numbers in Utah have been turned into a JJ'esque average of 16 points, 4 rebounds and 3 assists with very high percentages that were never there before Nash.

The MVP took a hodgepodge of scrubs, castaways and role players and has them in the Western Conference Finals without the team's starting frontcourt.

True everyone above had talent, but it took Nash to maximize it.

[BillsCarnage]

This years grizz were veteran led and won 49 games, more than either LA team.

The avg margin of victory was 14pts and it took a 5pt game to bring it down to that. Sounds like the Grizz really gave the Mavs a battle.

[pussyface]

billscarnagie: you are right, the mavs totally waxed that grizzlies' ass.

johns: "He may not be a top-10 player in reguards to pure skill or potential"
this is where we agree and thats important

[pussyface]

there is an amalgamation of factors that have led to the emergence of a new generation of quality suns players.

steve nash is one of them, but by no means the only reason the team is where it is. lets not forget, as a for instance, the contributions of the teams leading SCORER and rebounder Shawn Marion.

[JMarkJohns]

there is an amalgamation of factors that have led to the emergence of a new generation of quality suns players.

steve nash is one of them, but by no means the only reason the team is where it is. lets not forget, as a for instance, the contributions of the teams leading SCORER and rebounder Shawn Marion.

If You think Shawn Marion is a reason for other players having career years you're nuts. In fact, it can be argued that Marion has benefitted as much as any of those other players from Nash. Check out his pre-Nash, with-Nash PPG, RPG and percentages.

Shawn Marion is a finisher. Not a creator. Them's the facts. He depends upon others to generate his offense. He hasn't the ability to create for himself or others.

You are fooling yourself if you think the Suns are anyone but Nash. This is why the team has struggled to even score (despite the depth of scorers) when Nash is injured. He does it all for them. Without him, not only can they not consistantly finish or shoot a high percentage, they can't even consistantly get shots off.

You act like you're an authority on the Suns when you've probably seen, counting these playoffs, 20 games or so. I know, I know, this is a message board, so you'll come back and say you've seen many, many more. But your ignorance shows the truth; that you, my friend, know very little about the Suns, let alone the intricacies of their offense. You're speaking to someone about who's maybe missed 20 games over the past two years. It's probably closer to 12-15. I tape just about every game, reguardless of whether I watch it live. I'm a statistician by trade and know how to review film and know exactly what to look for by habit.

I know.

[pussyface]

...you acted like Nash got a ragtag bunch of nobodies to this point, but Marion is clearly an all-star level player. According to Dantoni, Marion is a top 5 player in this league (i know, this is not true at all.)

from hearing how you guys defend Nash's mvp awards though, you would never know that there was another elite player on the team.

nash has one more allstar playing with him than guys like dirk/kobe/lbj, and they dont seem to garner as much special consideration/sympathy.


...this guy is one incredibly underwhelming two time mvp.

i do agree with you though that playing with Nash is helpful to a guy like Marion. Nash generally elevates the play of his teammates on the offensive end (though he obviously is not a guy you want on your team on the defensive end)

[MadDog73]

Why would a mavs fan hate on Nash?

Or Finley for that matter?

WTF is wrong with you people?!?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Bottom line- Without Nash the Suns are nothing.

[pussyface]

It's probably closer to 12-15. I tape just about every game, reguardless of whether I watch it live. I'm a statistician by trade and know how to review film and know exactly what to look for by habit.

I know.'---JOHNS
hehe, this guy is intense. it is funny how you think that because you are a fan you speak with infallability about the team you are obviously biased towards.

as for me being a bitter mavs fan or something you will find no evidence of that in my reasoned posts. i like nash personally and believe he's an outstanding, all star level player.

[Louae]

Here's the thing. Nash isn't just a really good PG. Anyone who think he's just really good is missing the facts. A Nash led team has led the League in offense for the past five seasons. That's not a coincidense, considering the amount of player turnover both Dallas and Phoenix has had.

If Dirk went down and Terry averaged 20-10, he wouldn't be enough to get them to the Conference Finals. I'm not sure Dallas would make the playoffs without Dirk, so your argument is very flawed.

Fact is, Last year many people questioned Nash by saying "but he has Amare". Well, this year he didn't and they have gone farther this year without him than they did last year with him. This is because of Nash.

He may not be a top-10 player in reguards to pure skill or potential, but on impact of a team, he's easily a top-3 player. He makes everyone better. Don't give me the "Phoenix" system either, but if you knew anything about the Suns, you'd know the system is Steve Nash. D'Antoni has said on many occasions he just lets Nash run the show. Everything you see is Nash. Is is the writer and director of the Suns offense. Everything is based on his play, which is why when Nash struggles, the Suns struggle and why when Nash plays good, the Suns play good. He's the end all, be all of this team. No one player in the League has more responsibility within an offense and no one player in the League can get so much out of so little.

And Yes, I do mean little.

Diaw... say what you want,, but he was a scrub throw in as part of the JJ trade. Phoenix ups have admitted to being surprised at his skills.
Jones... when he got consistant playing time (lost it around March due to injuries and Tim Thomas' acquisition) he was a 14-point, high percentage shooter in his first real year of playing time.
Barbosa... Look at last year's numbers (as a backup to Nash), then look at this year's numbers (as a SG next to Nash).
Tim Thomas... He was traded three times within the last three years and was eventually waived. He's been a career underacheiver and yet is now the best offensive frontcourt player the Suns have.
Bell... solid numbers in Utah have been turned into a JJ'esque average of 16 points, 4 rebounds and 3 assists with very high percentages that were never there before Nash.

The MVP took a hodgepodge of scrubs, castaways and role players and has them in the Western Conference Finals without the team's starting frontcourt.

True everyone above had talent, but it took Nash to maximize it.

Damn good post. That was spot on.

[JMarkJohns]

First off, you're addressing a post who chose Dirk as the MVP. So, just don't assume anything from all this Nash defense...

...you acted like Nash got a ragtag bunch of nobodies to this point, but Marion is clearly an all-star level player. According to Dantoni, Marion is a top 5 player in this league (i know, this is not true at all.)

Let's see, what part of scrubs (Diaw, House), castoffs (Thomas, Jones) and roleplayers (Bell, KThomas) don't you understand? You act as if he's got five All-Stars on his team. You act as if each of these players was something special BEFORE they were on Nash's team.

from hearing how you guys defend Nash's mvp awards though, you would never know that there was another elite player on the team.

Yes, he's got an All-Star player on his team. Unforunately said player does about as much on his own for the Suns offense as Ben Wallace does on his own for the Pistons offense. You act is if Marion is Tracy McGrady. He's not. He is wholly dependant upon others for his offense. Be it half-court, transition or putbacks (off others misses).

nash has one more allstar playing with him than guys like dirk/kobe/lbj, and they dont seem to garner as much special consideration/sympathy.

They shouldn't. First off, how many MVP's in history were their team's lone great player? What, maybe 10? , Dirk has the deepest team in the League behind him. True, none are great, but Howard is borderline All-Star calibur with enough touches and games played. Terry is a very good player. Kobe has his own demons to deal with before he ever wins an award like MVP and LeBron plays in the East and had a poor record and average against the top teams. That ultimately cost him.

...this guy is one incredibly underwhelming two time mvp.

Incredably underwelming because he took a bunch of rejects and got them to the Western Conference Finals, overcoming injuries to several along way, including season-ending injuries to what would have been his starting frontcourt. You take Dirk and Howard off the Mavs, are they where they are today? You take the Wallaces' off Detroit, are they where they are today? You take Shaq and Zo off of Miami, are they where they are today? Duncan off San Antonio? Brand off Los Angeles? O'Neal off Indiana? Gasol off Memphis? Come on. You are grossly understating the significance of what Nash has accomplished this year. Even in just the regular season. The Suns led the League in every major offensive statistic, despite the turnover, unfamilierity and injury. When the offense is solely based upon one player's skills then there can only be one reason for this.

i do agree with you though that playing with Nash is helpful to a guy like Marion.

from hearing how you guys defend Nash's mvp awards though, you would never know that there was another elite player on the team.

Contradictory, don't you think? Nash is what makes Marion elite. Marion is a great player, but he's an average offensive player. Whatever good you see from him largely stems from Nash.

[Louae]

...this guy is one incredibly underwhelming two time mvp.

Are you on crack? I find what he's done this year as amazing.

i do agree with you though that playing with Nash is helpful to a guy like Marion. Nash generally elevates the play of his teammates on the offensive end (though he obviously is not a guy you want on your team on the defensive end)

I find it ironic that you say that when the same case can be made for Nowitski.

[pussyface]

although i haventyet finished reading your novel, one consistent fallacy in your reasoning really stands out.

"Let's see, what part of scrubs (Diaw, House), castoffs (Thomas, Jones) and roleplayers (Bell, KThomas) don't you understand? You act ias iff he's got five All-Stars on his team. You act ias if each of these players was something special BEFORE they were on Nash's team." You

This logic is flawed in that it doenst establish a causal relationship as fas as Nash being the reason all these guys got so much better.

I agree Nash helps others extend their offseason game.

But I can stand around and say "jerry stackhouse was boo'd garbage in Washington before he played with Dirk." ..."josh howard was nothing but a latefirst round scrub until he got lucky and got drafted to play along Dirk."

This does not in any way prove that Dirk is responsable for these guys success.

As a for instance, take Diaw. It is not surprising to me that a guy drafted very young straight out of Europe could struggle mightilly for a few years (even Dirk struggled his rookie yr) before getting it together and playing the way they were always capable of.
obviously, playing under dantoni/nash is helpful too, but in this argument you are giving to much credit to Nash for factors that are beyond his control.

[pussyface]

"I find it ironic that you say that when the same case can be made for Nowitski."

to compare those 2 guys as equal defensively at this stage of their career is a joke. nash is truly terrible as a defender, while Dirk is certainly solid.

...most digs at Dirk's D are rooted in how bad he was at it when he came into the league. this is an area of his game he has clearly improved on drastically. nash has never taken the steps to become a quality defensive player, but I dont think the people in Phoenix care about that. ...with a dazzling offense most the time they dont have to.

[JMarkJohns]

although i haventyet finished reading your novel, one consistent fallacy in your reasoning really stands out.

"Let's see, what part of scrubs (Diaw, House), castoffs (Thomas, Jones) and roleplayers (Bell, KThomas) don't you understand? You act ias iff he's got five All-Stars on his team. You act ias if each of these players was something special BEFORE they were on Nash's team." You

This logic is flawed in that it doenst establish a causal relationship as fas as Nash being the reason all these guys got so much better.

I agree Nash helps others extend their offseason game.

But I can stand around and say "jerry stackhouse was boo'd garbage in Washington before he played with Dirk." ..."josh howard was nothing but a latefirst round scrub until he got lucky and got drafted to play along Dirk."

This does not in any way prove that Dirk is responsable for these guys success.

As a for instance, take Diaw. It is not surprising to me that a guy drafted very young straight out of Europe could struggle mightilly for a few years (even Dirk struggled his rookie yr) before getting it together and playing the way they were always capable of.
obviously, playing under dantoni/nash is helpful too, but in this argument you are giving to much credit to Nash for factors that are beyond his control.

Obviously you know too little about basketball to really have an educated opinion on the matter. You hate Nash because he left your team and you have since been poisoned by Cuban's backstabbing of him.


Diaw got every opportunity to play in Atlanta. Tim Thomas got every opportunity to play everywhere he went. House could never seize a consistant spot in a rotation. Jones could never either.

Then they all matriculate to the Valley and in one season each is having the best years of their careers.

If you want to chalk it up to coincidense, then go on ahead. It only proves your ignorance on the matter. PG's have one job. To make the offense work. Some PG's score, others pass. Nash does both and he does them as well as anyone in the game right now. As a byproduct of his skills, others have consistantly over the course of his career, turned from scrubs to role players, from role-players to stars and from stars to All-Stars.

Sometimes it's not all him, IE Dirk and even Amare (to an extent), but this year and in this case, it is all Nash. Again, you act like you're an authority on the matter and you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Without Nash's pic-n-roll skills (one of the few who consistantly use the method and use it well), Diaw and Tim Thomas would still be benchwarmers. If you knew anything about the Suns, you'd know that those two became stars when they were involved in it. Same with Amare. Again, it's just another example of how each's offense is based off of Nash.

When he's not driving and dishing, he's pic'n-n-roll'n. When he's not doing either, he's leading the break. It's all him.

Not that any amount of logic can shoot you off of your high horse.

You are obviously entrenched in your animosity of him.

You are the reason I said what I said in the "Suns in Finals" thread.

Haters will keep hating, while thinkers may finally start thinking differently.

[pussyface]

"Obviously you know too little about basketball to really have an educated opinion on the matter. You hate Nash because he left your team and you have since been poisoned by Cuban's backstabbing of him."--you

Not that any amount of logic can shoot you off of your high horse.

You are obviously entrenched in your animosity of him." -you

-------------------------------------------------------------
this is not the post of a dispassionate, logical observor. while my posts have been even keel, you are the one making crazy inferences. as I said, I like Nash personally and give him credit for being an all star level player and for elevating the players around him offensively.

listen to what im saying: i know Diaw sucked in Atlanta. But his emergence for the Suns is not totally unpredictable: hes a guy who was a lottery pick only a few years ago and absolutely loved by scouts....like a lot of foreign-born players making the adjustment to the nba at a very young age (such as Dirk) he was bad right out of the gate. i admit his game is helped by nash, but i dont give Nash all the credit to validate a bogus MVP award.

I can only imagine if DeSagana Diop had been picked up by you guys off the trash heap like he was by us. Suns people would attribute his turnaround as a jewel in the argument for Nash's MVP... (he was a scrub! he couldnt get off the bench before playing with Nash!).

...maybe im wrong, but I assure you my basis of operation is logic and not a blind hatred of Nash. I'm not going to resort to the measures you have used to try to discredit me.

Please quote me from my earlier posts in ways that indicat that I have a personal vendetta against Nash and have not been arguing my case on strictly basketball merits.

Just as you can acuse me of being bitter, I can accuse you of being a blind homer. That doesn't mean either will be entirely correct...

[JMarkJohns]

I'm no longer wasting my time. You have nothing new and we just keep going around in a vicous circle of "I'm right, you're wrong"... Obviously I'm not disuading you, you aren't dissuading me and really, only the two of us care at this point.

You've already proven yourself to be numbskull who thinks he knows things about things he knows nothing about... so I'm through.

No good can come from this. My point is proven and those with an open mind can see it's well thought out, well do ented and proven to be accurate.

Those who hate are welcome to keep on hating.

Just don't crap on a plate and expect me to believe it's pudding.

You have a very flawed notion about both importance to a team and basketball in general.

Hey, we were all there at one point as well... Thank God I'm past it...

[pussyface]

jmarks...

Your skills in this argument have been masterful and reminiscent of Socrates himself.


If you don't want to argue for Nash on the merits of his game and would prefer to make this a personal battle, than I agree that it is best to end this conversation.

...I wish you the best in the future. whatever you do, just dont ever pause for one moment to take a second to consider the other side or the possibility that you may not be 100% correct.

[JMarkJohns]

Pot, meet Kettle.

[pussyface]

your attempts at comedy make your attempts at rhetoric/arguing seem brilliant by comparison.

"dont on my plate and tell me its pudding."
that was a good one too.

are you a professional comedian by trade?

what does your pot kettle black reference even mean? where was the hypocrisy in my post? if you are implying that i'm the one who steered this argument towards the personal and away from basketball, than that notion can be dispelled by reading the contents of this thread.

[2centsworth]

I like Nash a whole bunch but I think I can name 10 players I rather have too:

Duncan, Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Brand, Garnett, Dwight Howard, Ginobilli!