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What about these guys?
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
George Mikan
Hakeem Olajawon Studied MJs moves.
Tim Duncan All without an offensive coach.
Kevin Garnett Get real. Surround him with a good team and he rocks.
Shaquille O'Neal 5 second keyholes and allowed to do offensive charges every other score helps.
David Robinson great role player.
Patrick Ewing Also victim of offensive offensive coach (Van Grunty).
Must add Wilt.
What about these guys?
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
George Mikan
Given that David didn't start playing ball until pretty late in life, his career is pretty remarkable. He's probably one of the most intelligent players to ever play the game, too.
Now here's where we get to the "slow white boy who wouldn't last five minutes in today's game".
Kareem, Hakeem, Russell, and Wilt are in my opinion the best centers to play the game (in that order, but I wouldn't be offended if they were rearranged). Shaq, Moses Malone, and Arvydas Sabonis are in the second tier, and then the field really opens up.
Re: DarrinS's post below: Greatness should be judged relative to greatness. Mikan was the best of a sorry bunch, but he would have been schooled by almost any all-star center from the late 50s onward. Bob Lanier, among many others, was a better player than George Mikan.
Last edited by Bob Lanier; 06-05-2006 at 11:30 AM.
In Mikan's day, they were almost ALL slow, white boys. He was dominant in his era, nontheless.
Here's a chart of the career bests for each in the major categories, the highest total for each category will be bolded.
Code:PTS FG% RB A BS S FTA Shaquille O'Neal 29.7 601 13.9 3.8 3.5 0.9 13.1 David Robinson 29.8 551 13.0 4.8 4.5 2.3 11.6 Patrick Ewing 28.6 567 12.1 3.0 4.0 1.4 7.9 Tim Duncan 25.5 549 12.9 3.9 2.9 0.9 8.5 Hakeem Olajawon 27.8 538 14.0 3.6 4.6 2.6 8.0 Kevin Garnett 24.2 526 13.9 6.0 2.2 1.7 6.1
Here's where they ranked against each other in each of those categories and combined using a lower is better scoring system:
Code:Pts FG% RB A BS S FTA Score David Robinson 1 3 3 2 2 2 2 = 15 Shaquille O'Neal 2 1 2 4 4 5 1 = 19 Hakeem Olajawon 4 5 1 5 1 1 4 = 21 Patrick Ewing 3 2 5 6 3 4 5 = 28 Tim Duncan 5 4 4 3 5 5 3 = 29 Kevin Garnette 6 6 2 1 6 3 6 = 30
LOL! I am the ultimate Drob homer but I promise I didn't have any preconceived ideas for that simplistic little ranking...and I didn't expect Drob to lead it by that much under any cir stances...
What does it all mean? Well no more than the IBM awards already told us...just that when you judge peak performance in terms of seasonal bests Drob grades out as...well, the best all around C of his era and one of the best in history.
Ironic that he'd the be last guy on that list anyone would rank #1, becauyse of media ignorance...well ok, maybe Ewing.
And BTW...it's seriously annoying that Ewing even gets put on these lists...he doesn't belong on them.
We could do another ranking...we could rank them by number of all star guards they played with...subtracting points for each. I wonder where Drob would finish on that one relative to the other C's...in NBA history. I know where Shaq would finish if we used that system on this list....it's easy to do with Shaq..just count the number of finals he has played in...on each he had at least one AS guard. How many rings did he win without one? No doubt who'd be dead last using that system...Bill Russell and the 2.6 billion AS's he played with.
Last edited by whottt; 06-05-2006 at 08:59 PM.
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajawon
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
I like David an awful lot, so I'm not arguing with you because I don't like the way your rankings came out.
But there's a lot of things that great big men do that don't show up in the rankings. And giving an equal weight to each category, especially assists and steals, seems to me like the wrong approach for ranking big men.
That's where I agree.
You can't crossout that guy making a ridiculous "today's game" argument. Everybody would fall into it.
This wasn't meant to be the be all end all on which one was the best...it's just a simplistic evaluation thrown into the dicussion...it has more weight than the average opinion though.
But just for the sake of argument...
Take out assists and steals...
It'll grade out like this:
1.Shaq = 10
2.Drob = 11
3.Hakeem =15
4.Ewing = 18
5.Duncan = 21
6.Garnette = 26
All that did was kick the out of Garnett.
Tell you what...you tell me which stats are relevant...and you tell me the little things you think are pertinent. I gurantee you that the more you refine it, the more Drob is going to separate himself from the others. And you can pick and choose whatever other stats you want...
Try using Finals MVP trophies as the criteria...that'd be the one you are looking for.
Last edited by whottt; 06-05-2006 at 08:59 PM.
Could always do it by head to head record...
Drob'd grade out #1 on that one too...
Based on Finals Appearences:
1. Shaq. I hate to say it, but the guy has a chance to win a 4th ring, and despite that total humilation block by Ben Wallace, he looks pretty damn good. At his peak? Damn...
2. Tim Duncan. He may not have Robinsons or Shaq's numbers, but he already has 3 rings, and has done it with basically 2 different teams (1999 and 2005 Spurs). And he isn't slowing down.
3. Olajawon. Do you consider his beating of Robinson during Robinson's prime? Regardless, Robinson couldn't win a ring without Tim. That's a fact, again, as much as I hate to say it.
4. David Robinson. Incredible player, and still finished with 2 rings. And enough has been said already about him, so...
5. Dirk Nowitzki. Has to be above Ewing or KG. Has to be. I don't care if his defense has been lacking, he's a different player this year. Hasn't won anything yet, but even if Shaq and Wade run through him in 4, (won't happen), Dirk deserves some credit, Spurs fans.
Last edited by MadDog73; 06-06-2006 at 03:35 PM.
Penny Hardaway...Kobe Bryant...Dwayne Wade. Can you say All NBA? 1st Team?
What has he done without them?
3. Olajawon. Do you consider his beating of Robinson during Robinson's prime? Regardless, Robinson couldn't win a ring without Tim. That's a fact, again, as much as I hate to say it.
Do you consider his beating of Shaq?
And using that logic...
Dirk>Duncan
Come to think of it...Duncan>Shaq...or is it Shaq>Duncan? Since they have both beaten each other...
5. Dirk Nowitzki. Has to be above Ewing or KG. Has to be. I don't care if his defense has been lacking, he's a different player this year. Hasn't won anything yet, but even if Shaq and Wade run through him in 4, (won't happen), Dirk deserves some credit, Spurs fans.
Dirk's on an impressive run, he also hasn't had to go up against Hakeem or Shaq yet though...only the #2 guy on your list.
Too bad Duncan wasn't good enough to beat Dirk...
Using your logic I mean. It is Duncan's fault we didn't advance. Dirk>Duncan.
It's Duncan's fault that Pop coached like a dip and Manu fouled Dirk on that play in game 7...
Just like it was Drob's fault that Elliott bricked the game winning FT's in game 1 back in 95.
David Robinson a "role player" ? What, did you start watching the NBA in 2003?
If you had any idea of the seriously bad talent DRob took to 60 wins before Tim arrived, you wouldn't dare put a proven "can't get ANYTHING done in the playoffs" guy like KG ahead of him. Let's see, here are the four leading scorers after DR in 94-95:
Sean Elliott
Avery Johnson
Vinny Del Negro
Chuck Person
'nuf said.
None of the "big guys" on the list have done anything by themselves. The difference with David was he has another incredible Big Guy with him to win les. It'd be like Shaq and Hakeem, or some crazy like that.
No, because Duncan has beat Dirk out twice in the playoffs. And even this year, Tim had better numbers than Dirk. Dirk's TEAM was better than Tim's, and that's the flaw of using Championships as a benchmark. Still, I didn't want to just parrot what everybody else said, what's the fun in that?
Tim would probably beat even prime Shaq.
Of course, I think Tim > Shaq now when they play against each other, although I'd love to see a Spurs/Heat Finals next year to prove this.
To be honest, I hate these questions, because there are so many variables. I like your reasoning, BTW, I just wanted to throw my two cents in, (which is probably all it's worth!)
I would love to see Robinson at his peak versus Shaq. That might change my mind, actually. , that's it, Shaq's moving down to Number 4!
1. Tim
2. Hakeem
3. Robinson
4. Shaq
Actually, after thinking about this some more, I'm sticking with this list!
Last edited by MadDog73; 06-06-2006 at 10:48 AM.
1. Shaq
2.Dream
3.TD
4.DRob
5.KG
6.Ewing
Wow, just....................wow. Survived? He didn't just survive, he was a force. He did it the same way that Duncan does it today, with great footwork and fundamentals. Tim Duncan fans should respect McHale because of how successful he was because of footwork and fundmentals, just like Duncan. Seriously, what you just posted would be like somebody twenty years from now saying that Duncan couldn't hack it in the current NBA, all because he wasn't flashy enough for them to appreciate.
BTW with the players given, my top 3 would go like this:
1. Shaq - during his prime he is the most dominant force in the modern NBA
2. Dream - I believe he's the 2nd most skilled center ever (Kareem #1)
3. Duncan - greatest footwork and fundamentals ever
Last edited by BAkriD; 06-05-2006 at 12:33 PM.
1. Tim
2. Hakeem
3. Robinson
4. Shaq
Happy now?
Drob was like 6-1 VS Shaq at his peak. Shaq didn't start beating Drob until he went to the Lakers and got a team that that had about 4 All Stars on it. He was 31-12 against Hakeem or something like that...10-7 against Ewing. Garnett was a skidmark...
Rate them however you want man lol...everyone else does. I was just making a point...the same one I always make. Drob is under-rated bigtime. I wasn't even actually trying to say he was the best...I was just throwing a little ranking system out there based on the limited available stats...lo and behold...Drob scored high on it, like he always does.
Here's the deal about the playoff arguments...
Who do you like the best?
Kobe, Penny, Dwayne?
Manu, Parker?
Cassell, Drexler?
Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro?
Guess which 2 never even sniffed an all rookie team...much less an All Star Game or All NBA.
Last edited by whottt; 06-05-2006 at 12:59 PM.
It would be too logical to use this one...
IMO DRob is one of the 3 most underrated players in NBA history... what would history have told if Robinson had played for the Knicks, the Celtics or the Lakers???
For all around game, it'd be 1) Dream 2) Admiral 3) Tim 4) Shaq 5) Ewing (forget garnett, dirk and that type. They aren't comparable)
Offensively it'd be 1) Shaq 2) Dream 3) Tim 4) Admiral 5) Ewing
At least in my opinion.
1. Hakeem. The guy had zero holes in his game. In his prime his game was nearly as polished as Tim's while being almost as athletic as DRob. It pains me to say it, but it's true.
2. Tim. Three finals MVP awards with an ever changing supporting cast.
3. Robinson. A center who could things that some guards in the league couldn't. Managed to be a defensive force on a team coached by Bob Hill. That takes talent.
4. Shaq. I ing hate him, but I can't honestly put him ahead of the two guys on the list that haven't won jack. He could have been the best of all time but his work ethic is for . He won a genetic lottery and gets by on refs not calling half of the fouls he commits, he's useless if he's more than five feet from the basket, and he's usually had the benefit of world class help.
5. Ewing. Despite his star making turn in Space Jam, I just can't rank him higher than dudes with rings.
6. Garnett. I've never liked him, but in this case the last ranking is nothing personal.
I'm kind of at a loss as to what those last two are doing on the list. It would have made a little more sense if it was a list of bigs who have won les or something like that. Kareem should have been in the mix.
Granted, and I didn't mean to completely discount what you posted. Apologies if that's how it came out.
Really, you could argue that that's a pretty good list.
I've always liked David, and I'm not trying to prove you wrong. Heck, with a more refined stat, David might dominate even more.
The kind of things I would look to add to build a really good statistic for big men would be things that manifest as help defense and making other players better. Things like defensive efficiency +/-, or team eFG +/-. Individual statistics aren't the whole story. Again, given the team David had around him, it wouldn't be surprising to me if he scored really high on these, either.
That's certainly not the only factor, but I don't think it should be completely discounted, either -- admittedly it's a different, much more subjective, kind of analysis.
[QUOTE=resistanze]Rank these hall of famers (or future HOFs) when they were at their prime.
1. Hakeem -- I've never seen a bigman have a playoff anywhere close to Hakeem's performance in 1995
2. Shaq - His 2000 is the best season by a bigman I've ever seen
3. TD - 30 and 15 seemed like an average performance for TD in the 2003 playoffs
4. David - 1994 was the second best regular season I've ever seen a bigman have
5. KG - A Monster in 2003 and 2004. If he had one point guard in 2004 he prob at least makes the Finals.
6. Ewing - The most overrated player in NBA history. I'd take Mourning in his prime over Ewing in a second, but Patrick played in the media capital of the world.
David Robinson was as soft as a motherf$%ing grape. You can't rate him above Shaq, there is no comparison. If it wasn't for you guys tanking your season and prayin to the lottery gods for Duncan, you would still be without a championship. And you know it.
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