Ludden: Spurs wait on Knicks' reply

[Mr. Body]

But Javtokas was still their third choice, right? They wanted Butler and Elson. And then if they didn't get one of them, then they wanted Jav. Or am I misreading it?

That's what I'm thinking. They wanted Javtokas to wait until Butler was or wasn't matched, then sign him to that slot if it was available. (Or Elson, which was less likely.)

Javtokas was their third choice.

Actually, I think Elson is separate. They might recognize him as the third best of the three, but need someone with NBA experience who has started NBA games. They needed to take a flyer on Butler due to the RFA deal, so it's not even clear that they think Javtokas isn't the best of the three (likely 2nd).

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, no disrespect, but I don't think you're getting it. The issue is not picking Elson over Javtokas. The issue is losing their insurance policy through bad communication. The article clearly states they wanted to sign him to whichever slot was matched. They somehow screwed up, Javtokas went for another contract instead of waiting, and they risk having only one center (Elson) instead of a guaranteed two (either Elson/Butler or Elson/Javtokas).

No, I get what you're saying but you're not getting a few things and you're assuming others. Now, you're assuming that there was a comunication faliure but they may have communicated clear as day to his agent and Robertas but Robertas may have just decided that waiting was not in his best interests. You simply have no way of knowing for sure.

Next, Javaktovas seems to be their 3rd option behind Elson and Butler, so if they get both Elson and Butler there is no mistake.

Lastly, as I've been saying Robertas wasn't a lock to be a good NBA player so there's no way to say for certain that they made a huge mistake by not bringing him in regardless of the cir stances.

[MannyIsGod]

If they thought Robertas was the 2nd best of the 3, he'd be here.

[whottt]

But- why are players held to a higher standard? If the Spurs did not want to bring Nazr back- would he be questioning their loyalty- after all Nazr helped them win a championship- right? I just find it funny because teams get rid of players all the time, but then when a player leaves a team, he is the disloyal one.

Who knows? But in this case the comments about Nazr we are analyzing come from a fellow player...not a fan, not a team honcho.


It also depends on the organization...some organizations are pretty loyal.

[milkyway21]

Bowens comments are interesting.

He seems a little bitter. I never thought of it that way until just now, but Nazr did go to our rivals. Is that ed up? It doesn't bother me for some reason. Probably because most posters on here think he'll be the best player on our team in a Pistons vs. Spurs game.

when Nazr rejected the Spurs extension offer before, I already had the feeling he'd be gone this summer. It seems he's not comfortable here. Rasho rejected Minny's offer to play here with Duncan, Nazr came here via trade. We don't really know if he likes to be in San Antonio, IMO.

[Mr. Body]

Read my response to Kori. Elson was selected because they wanted a starter with NBA experience. At least someone who has started before. Whether they thought Javtokas was better or not is irrelevant. They went with Elson because they knew they could get him and they knew what he could provide.

Then they went after Butler. As an RFA, they had to as soon as possible, knowing it would take seven days to find out and the answer could very well be 'No.' In which case they would swing their attention to Javtokas.

They want to go into next season with two centers. One is Elson, automatically. The other is Butler/Javtokas. They needed to set it up so that, if Butler was matched, they could then sign Javtokas. Yet, as it stands, there is no Javtokas to be signed. This is where the mistake was made.

One of two things went wrong: 1) they did not amply communicate to him their plans and failed to access his sympathies enough to have him wait another week. Or, 2) they did, he was pissed, and signed another contract. Their mistake here was in not planning any contingencies in that case.

This is a mess. They're in really bad shape at the moment, because they are very close to only getting Francisco Elson out of this. If Isiah doesn't match, they're in great shape, that was option one. If Isiah matches, there are no other centers on the market and this might just be a busted year. Even if Javtokas would be a below-average center, he is still somebody they have on the bench. Someone who's not there right now. You're also failing to read these articles - the team wanted to keep negotiating with Robertas, but because they floundered the option was lost. Their insurance is gone.

How you fail to see the mistake here, I don't know.

[ChumpDumper]

Javtokas wanted more money than the Spurs wanted to give him. He got pissed and showed them whatfor by going to Greece.

How tough is this to figure out?

[Mr. Body]

No. Chump, you're wrong.

[ChumpDumper]

No. You're wrong.

There. We're even.

[Mr. Body]

Seriously. You have nothing to substantiate this claim. You're talking out your ass, when all evidence points to a different situation.

[ChumpDumper]

. Javtokas spent months here. Underwent surgery. Hobbled around the SBC on his futuro crutches. You'd think in that time he'd get some kind of idea how the Spurs organization works, right?

You give him no credit.

He wanted money and the Greek contract and deadline were bargaining angles, just like the Spurs' deadline for Zo was a bargaining angle. I know you have a priapism for this guy, but he's been noncommittal about being a Spur before, making claims about playing time and whatnot. If he really wanted to be a Spur that badly, he wouldn't have agreed to the Greek team's arbitrary deadline.

No one held a gun to this guy's head.

[Quadzilla99]

He signed a 1 year $1.5 million dollar contract. I don't see how it was about money.

[ChumpDumper]

He wanted more from the Spurs.

[Mr. Body]

The Spurs org helped him out big time, absolutely. And I give him total credit for expecting to play for the team this year. So why isn't he? I can't really tell, but you seem to think it's his fault.

I don't understand any of your arguments, because there don't seem to be any. Javtokas signed with Panathanaikos when the Spurs went for two other centers. Why wouldn't he? The offer was on the table, as you point out, as a bargaining chip. Yes. But also an escape clause. We've all seen how the Spurs have failed to get Scola into the NBA.

Maybe Javtokas asked for too much money. Whatever it was, I can assure you it wasn't out of market price - Rudoy wouldn't do it, anyway. But if the terms were too high, the Spurs might have tried a little thing like 'negotiation' and offer a lower price. For centuries humans have done this sort of thing.

Instead, the Spurs took the offer off the table and then, on signing day, instead of getting the next series of faxes, the Jak camp gets word that Elson and Butler were signed to contracts. What the is this? Perhaps punitively, they sign right away with Pan, but I'm not sure why they wouldn't.

I think what happened was someone in the F.O. got a stiffie about stealing Butler away from NYK. They also wanted a 'starter' and thought Elson fit the bill. Sent out contracts. Failed utterly to communicate with Jak. Or, conceivably, he was pretty wounded by their about face. We'll see what the damage is next year when the train comes to the station again.

The issue was not money. You've failed on this account. It wasn't playing time or guarantees. Javtokas wasn't being a prima donna or ungrateful for what the Spurs did for him. They said NO to him and he did what any reasonable person would do - find employment elsewhere.

[Mr. Body]

He signed a 1 year $1.5 million dollar contract I don't see how it was about money.

Dump isn't really getting it. He has his panties in a twist trying to defend the FO's cheapness and dubious tactics, but it doesn't make much sense.

[T Park]

Dubious.....


Heaven forbid he work with the Spurs a little more after they payed for everything in his recovery when they could've told him off wtf are you doing riding a damn motorcycle.


But the Spurs are horrible and everyone in the front office should be fired and Bob Bass and John Lucas should be brought back obviously.

[Mr. Body]

T Park buddy, did it ever occur to you Javtokas wasn't even given the opportunity to play hard for the Spurs and pay off some of the debt to them?

What part of "wasn't offered a contract" don't you understand?

[T Park]

did it ever occur to you Javtokas wasn't even given the opportunity to play hard for the Spurs and pay off some of the debt to them

All he had to do was wait till next thursday and sign a contract.

Not that ing hard.

[ChumpDumper]

I can't really tell, but you seem to think it's his fault.

It's no one's fault. He did what he wanted and the Spurs did what they wanted. They just didn't mix.

The issue was not money. You've failed on this account.

Bull . These things are ALWAYS about money. I can't believe you are being so willfully stupid about this.

Here's my theory on what happened.

1. Before negotiations could even start. Jav's agent says he expects a 2+1 deal. It was reported.

2. Spurs for whatever reason thought they could sign him for the LLE. Why not? This guy can play at this level again because of them. We should get a discount for now. This makes perfect sense because they were offerring the full MLE to Przybilla. That's a fact.

3. Rudoy has been negotiating with Euro teams the entire time. He's an agent.

4. Rudoy and Jav are pissed that the offer is on Manu money. WTF? Oberto got more! Rudoy say the LLE, we can get that from this Greek team! We'll tell the Spurs we're taking this deal and give them until the end of the week to give us more money.

5. Spurs have been talking to the Butler and Elson camps, and they know that they will require more than the LLE because they are restricted. They decide to go ahead and make offers to those two rather than lose them to other teams that may be offerring more (this is a fact with Butler). If one or both players are matched, then they would think about giving Jav more money or years.

Friday comes and goes. Javtokas is playing for at least as much as the Spurs were originally offerring him.

Makes perfect sense.

It was about money.

[ChumpDumper]

The Spurs simply couldn't tell Rudoy "Hey, maybe we'll give you more money if this RFA doesn't work out" even though that's exactly what would've happened.

[Dingle Barry]

Chump, you are completely glossing over the diplomacy that might have kept Jav from turning around and signing a Greek contract. Your theory makes it sound like Rudoy and Buford were passing notes with contract figures through a hole in the wall.

The simple fact is that the FO bungled the Jav situation, regardless of how it happened.

[MannyIsGod]

They didn't bungle anything. The front office has what they want at the moment!

You can say they're stupid for wanting Elson over Javaktovas and I'd be inclided to agree, but they obviously did not want Javaktovas all that much or he'd be under contract at this time.

[ChumpDumper]

Chump, you are completely glossing over the diplomacy that might have kept Jav from turning around and signing a Greek contract. Your theory makes it sound like Rudoy and Buford were passing notes with contract figures through a hole in the wall.

You're acting like theirs is not a naturally adversarial relationship. Rudoy is a SPORTS AGENT. Buford is a GM. They aren't buddies of family.

The simple fact is that the FO bungled the Jav situation, regardless of how it happened.

You're just pissed Javtokas didn't wait to see if he could get more money next week. I don't blame either side for how things went down. You HAVE to blame someone and there's no way you are going to blame your object d'amour Javtokas. So who does that leave?

[T Park]

The simple fact is that the FO bungled the Jav situation, regardless of how it happened.

So If Javtokas was asking for a ridiculous amount of money for a totally unproven player in the NBA, then thats the FO's fault?



of course...

EVERYTHING is the FO's fault.

[Quadzilla99]

Chumpdumper dropping the french like its hot.