Andrea Yates Not Guilty/insanity

[Kori Ellis]

Alot of people get upset, sad, whatever Kori, but they don't pop their cork. That is the fine line that seperates sanity from insanity.

This woman HAS TO BE INSANE.

Every person who "pops their cork" isn't insane or mentally unstable. Sometimes people just make the wrong decisions (crimes of passion). Sometimes people are just bad seeds (or whatever you want to say).

This country believes everyone is insane or has some sort of disorder and is just dying to overmedicate everyone.

I think a very small, small percentage of people are actually insane. Everyone else who cops insanity, depression, etc. are just people who CHOOSE not to handle life.

[SpursWoman]

I don't really care about the diagnostics of it. Psychiatry is mostly a crock. Anyone can get upset, sad or whatever about anything and a psychiatrist can find that they fit into the criteria of some syndrome or disorder, then deem them "mentally unstable".

She killed her kids. I don't have any sort of sympathy for whatever she believes she was going through.

Seriously. A case could be made for anyone who has ever killed anyone else ... because they are all off of their rockers. They'd have to be. But they are all getting life with no parole or the death penalty. Why should she be any different?

I'm all for equal opportunity lethal injection.

[clambake]

I agree with your "small percentage" theory.

Andrea Yates is a member of that group. I don't believe in people trying to cop an insanity plea because they momentarily flipped and cut their wifes head off.

To methodically kill your 5 children = insane.

[ashbeeigh]

Sometimes people are just bad seeds (or whatever you want to say).

A lot of things play into the "bad seed" thing. Environment, genetics, stress, etc.

[FromWayDowntown]

Technically, the jury found her not guilty of the crime of murder. They did that because they found that she lacked the ability to form the requisite mental state -- intent to kill -- to support a conviction for murder. The inability to form that mental state arose because they found that she was insance.

I think what she did is reprehensible, regardless of whether her intention was to kill her kids or not. But the law requires that the State prove intent to get a conviction for murder and this jury didn't believe that Andrea Yates had that intent when she killed her kids. I don't know enough about criminal procedure to know if the State asked the jury (or could have asked the jury) about the culpable mental states for other varieties of homicide -- manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide. I doubt it would have mattered because the jury's verdict seems to indicate a belief that Yates was detached from reality in some meaningful way when she killed the kids.

[Jekka]

I think he feels some culpability in this for his denial of her having any problems prior to the killings. Friends and family stated that she was pretty much vacant and emotionless for months prior to her murdering her children. She was i nthe hospitol for one of those 7 day stints but that was about it.
He was teliing people she was "ok".

He should feel some culpability. They knew another psychotic episode would probably happen if she got pregnant again - they should never have allowed another pregnancy to happen, I don't care if they had to abstain since they refused to use contraception - for her mental health if nothing else. She had plainly shown she was willing to hurt herself, so at the least they were willing to risk that in exchange for another child.

•Feb. 26, 1994: Noah Yates is born. Yates later tells doctors that shortly after the birth that Satan told her to get a knife and stab someone.

•Dec. 12, 1995: John Yates is born.

•Sept. 13, 1997: Paul Yates is born.

•Feb. 15, 1999: Luke Yates is born.

•June 16, 1999: Andrea Yates calls her husband at work and asks him to come home. He returns to find her shaking and crying.

•June 17, 1999: Yates overdoses on Trazodone, a prescription sleeping medicine given to her father after a stroke.

•June 18, 1999: Yates is transferred to Houston’s Methodist Hospital psychiatric unit and is diagnosed with a major depressive disorder.

•June 24, 1999: Yates is discharged from Methodist.

•July 20, 1999: Russell Yates wrestles knife away from his wife, who was holding it to her neck in the bathroom at her mother’s house.

•July 21, 1999: Yates is admitted to Memorial Spring Shadows Glen for psychiatric treatment and is prescribed Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug.

•Aug. 9, 1999: Yates is discharged from Memorial Spring Shadows Glen.

•Aug. 10, 1999: Yates begins daily outpatient care.

•Aug. 18, 1999: Psychiatrist Eileen Starbranch warns the Yates couple that having another child could trigger another psychotic episode.

•Nov. 30, 2000: Mary Yates is born. Link

"If I'd known she was psychotic, we'd never have even considered having more kids," Yates told the Dallas Observer. Link

He'd been told at least twice about the psychosis, and I think the father shares some of the blame - for negligence if nothing else.

[ashbeeigh]

The birth of a child is supposed to make a new mother happy, but that is not always the way it works out. Emotional disturbances and psychiatric disorders after childbirth are so common that they have their own Latin-derived names: postpartum, postnatal, or puerperal disorders. Three kinds are generally recognized: baby blues, postpartum depression, and postpartum psychosis.

Baby blues appear in the first few days after childbirth and last a week or two at most. Common symptoms are crying spells, shifting moods, fatigue, restlessness, sadness, irritability, and loss of sleep and appe e. The prevalence of baby blues is difficult to judge, because the condition is vaguely defined and described in varying ways, but it is certainly common. One study found that nearly half of new mothers had the symptoms; others using stricter definitions have found lower rates.

This usually mild and brief upset does not deserve to be called a psychiatric disorder, but in about 15% of new mothers it deepens into a more serious and lasting postpartum depression. Women have a higher than average rate of hospital admissions for mood disorders in the two years after childbirth and especially in the first three months. Depressed mothers are weepy, anxious, and easily upset, exhausted but unable to sleep. They may have physical symptoms typical of anxiety as well ...

One out of 1,000 new mothers has a psychotic episode, usually in the first few weeks. It generally takes the form of severe depression or mania, with symptoms that include rapid mood changes, despair or elation, confusion, severe insomnia, and suicidal thoughts. Delusions and hallucinations often center on the baby; the mother may think that the baby is dead, a devil, doomed to a terrible fate, or destined for an exalted one.

In most cases, the mother's concerns about her child are more realistic, because depression itself makes them so ...

Mood fluctuations caused by the rapid hormonal change that occurs at childbirth are a possible source of postpartum disorders. ...

Postpartum disorders are sometimes considered a product of modern industrial society,...

Many other possible causes of postpartum disorders have been proposed, including poverty, single motherhood, unemployment, complications during pregnancy, and unwanted pregnancy. Some women may be physically exhausted; others may be overwhelmed and frightened by new responsibilities. ...


Women with postpartum depression also consistently complain of lacking support from others -- especially their husbands, whom they often describe as neglectful or unloving. A woman in an unhappy marriage may hope that the arrival of a child will change everything and become depressed when she is disappointed. ....


Studies of postpartum psychosis raise the question of whether postpartum reactions are a distinct type of psychiatric disorder. There is a high rate of psychiatric disorders and psychoses in the families of women with postpartum psychosis, and they themselves have a high rate of psychiatric disorders and psychosis (especially bipolar disorder). Half of them suffer a later psychotic reaction; researchers disagree on whether it is more likely to occur after the birth of a child. ...

The stress of pregnancy and childbirth may sometimes provoke a psychotic reaction that would not occur otherwise, but there is no proof that childbirth is associated with a distinct form of depression or mania. ...

Psychiatric drugs can be helpful as well, but their side effects must be kept in mind. ...

Recent research shows that both antidepressants and mood stabilizers can also prevent the development of postpartum disorders. In one controlled experiment, valproate prevented postpartum episodes in women with a history of bipolar disorder. In a study of women with a history of postpartum depression, only 7% of those who chose an antidepressant but 62% of those who took no drug relapsed after childbirth.

Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) (Why?, I ask) is highly effective for severe depression or mania and can be safely administered a week after delivery. Patients are not supposed to drink liquids before undergoing ECT, but dehydration can be prevented with intravenous fluids if necessary.

Estrogen may also have some promise as a treatment. ...

Psychotherapy and self-help groups can also be useful. Interpersonal therapy (see Mental Health Letter, October 1993) ...

Being constantly alone with a baby is not good for any mother. Group therapy and self-help groups provide her with companionship, advice, the opportunity to help others, and the comfort of learning that her problems are not unique. ...

When a new mother must be hospitalized for severe depression or psychosis, caring for the child presents special problems. Usually the child is separated from the mother, for several reasons: the effects of her illness may be damaging to the child, the infant would be disruptive or harmed by the hospital environment, and the expense and logistical problems are too great.....

[Spurminator]

You can't really punish someone who is clinically insane, but there's also such a grey area between insanity and malice and I don't trust myself or the rest of the general public (jury) to determine which is which.

It's times like these when it's probably best to just let someone kill herself.

[Yonivore]

And BTW, has anyone noticed how much boutons has been posting about PMS and a woman's period the last couple of days? Is it creeping anyone else out besides me?

I have boutons on ignore...so, no.

[SpursWoman]

It's times like these when it's probably best to just let someone kill herself.

[SpursWoman]

I have boutons on ignore...so, no.

Good thing ... he seems obsessed with it for some reason these days. If he was 12 I might understand it, but given that he's almost twice my age ... it just seems particularly odd.

[Yonivore]

Good thing ... he seems obsessed with it for some reason these days. If he was 12 I might understand it, but given that he's almost twice my age ... it just seems particularly odd.

So, how have you been?

[boutons_]

SW, have you been on the victim side of PMS- ed-up woman?

Seems like women want men to appreciate and understand women, but when men the make the effort, and even live through first-hand women's female specific experiences, and survive to talk about them, we get labelled as "creepy".

Just as we men all know, we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.

As Chris Rock jokes, men can't ever win with women, because men have a genetic need to be logical, while women don't.

[Kori Ellis]

PMS is just an excuse for women to .

[1Parker1]

PMS is just an excuse for women to .

Like we need an excuse...

[1Parker1]

As to the verdict of this case, I'll have to agree that Yates was probably insane. However, you have to look at the bigger picture; this woman drowned her FIVE children. That act is simply inexcusable as a human being. If you think about all the crazy people in the world who kill and commit horrible crimes, it can be argued that almost all of them have some sort of "mental diffienciecy" that drives them to commit those crimes if you use Phyciatry to back it up. Because no normal, sane person would commit those crimes.

In the case of Yates, what kind of quality of life will she be living at a mental ins ute? Especially if they say that it's probably not likely that she will ever get better or good enough to be a part of society. Sometimes killing a person who is that mentally unstable is the best solution.

[MannyIsGod]

With all the compassion that has been shown in this thread, it is amazing to me that the world is a place where events like this can happen.

[MannyIsGod]

As to the verdict of this case, I'll have to agree that Yates was probably insane. However, you have to look at the bigger picture; this woman drowned her FIVE children. That act is simply inexcusable as a human being. If you think about all the crazy people in the world who kill and commit horrible crimes, it can be argued that almost all of them have some sort of "mental diffienciecy" that drives them to commit those crimes if you use Phyciatry to back it up. Because no normal, sane person would commit those crimes.

In the case of Yates, what kind of quality of life will she be living at a mental ins ute? Especially if they say that it's probably not likely that she will ever get better or good enough to be a part of society. Sometimes killing a person who is that mentally unstable is the best solution.

Where do you get that most people who kill are insane? I'd have to disagree with that entirely. Murders happen for lots of reasons, but I am positive (although I have nothing to back it up at this time because I haven't looked) that the majority of murders are not commited by people suffering from insanity.

Some people simply have a lower value of life. I would say that Americans in general don't have that high a value on life and that is one reason we have a high murder rate. People in this very thread have been calling to extinguish a life. We watch people die everyday. We hear the numbers of people dying in other places and it doesn't even cause us to blink.

That woman had severe issues. I don't know how bad they were, but I can believe that she wasn't well enough to be in full touch with reality. Killing her doesn't solve that. Anyone can sit there and say what she did is inexcuseable, but the bottom line is that people with far more training in the feild than anyone in this thread looked at the situation and decided that she had issues that few will ever experience. I don't get what killing her solves.

[1Parker1]

Where do you get that most people who kill are insane? I'd have to disagree with that entirely. Murders happen for lots of reasons, but I am positive (although I have nothing to back it up at this time because I haven't looked) that the majority of murders are not commited by people suffering from insanity.

Some people simply have a lower value of life. I would say that Americans in general don't have that high a value on life and that is one reason we have a high murder rate. People in this very thread have been calling to extinguish a life. We watch people die everyday. We hear the numbers of people dying in other places and it doesn't even cause us to blink.

That woman had severe issues. I don't know how bad they were, but I can believe that she wasn't well enough to be in full touch with reality. Killing her doesn't solve that. Anyone can sit there and say what she did is inexcuseable, but the bottom line is that people with far more training in the feild than anyone in this thread looked at the situation and decided that she had issues that few will ever experience. I don't get what killing her solves.

If you think about all the crazy people in the world who kill and commit horrible crimes, it can be argued that almost all of them have some sort of "mental diffienciecy" that drives them to commit those crimes if you use Phyciatry to back it up. Because no normal, sane person would commit those crimes.

If you re-read my post I never said I personally thought that most people who kill are insane...I said that if you use "Psychiatry" to back up evidence...almost any person who kills or commits a crime would be considered mentally unstable based on psychiatric theories and "evidence"

[Spurminator]

Manny stole my thunder.

If you accept insanity, what reason do we have to punish her? Is it our own lust for revenge?

[1Parker1]

I don't get what killing her solves.

And I don't get what locking her up in a mental ins ution the rest of her life solves. Especially if lawyers and those "Experts" already say that she will most likely never get good healthy enough to leave there. Also, say she does somehow get better, you think she'll be able to live with herself once she realizes she killed her FIVE children?

[1Parker1]

Manny stole my thunder.

If you accept insanity, what reason do we have to punish her? Is it our own lust for revenge?

Sadly that's probably true.

[MannyIsGod]

If you re-read my post I never said I personally thought that most people who kill are insane...I said that if you use "Psychiatry" to back up evidence...almost any person who kills or commits a crime would be considered mentally unstable based on psychiatric theories and "evidence"

What I'm saying is that Psychaitry will say that most people are not insane. Having a mental disorder alone is not insanity. Being insane means that your mental disorder(s) are so severe that you cannot be held responsible for the crime you commited.

If the majority of murders were commited by insane individuals no one would be in jail.

[Spurminator]

And I don't get what locking her up in a mental ins ution the rest of her life solves.

Behavior/medical study, perhaps.

[Yonivore]

Behavior/medical study, perhaps.

I like the Guinea Pig scenario. I hope there's lot of electricity, needles, and scalpels involved. Maybe some kind of submersion therapy.