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  1. #26
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    But see, there I go back to that, everyone has faith in something.
    I agree. But I don't think that the faith needs to be in a deity. It could be that you have faith in your community and that's why you adhere to moral tenets.

    Anyway, I think we are arguing the same point from different angles. If I misunderstood your orginal argument and seemed hostile, I apologize.

  2. #27
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Sure it's an elective, but if it's not teaching the way the Supreme Court determined it should teach, it needs to change. Offering only Judeo-Christian courses is pretty small-minded in itself.
    Could it be that maybe the students have chosen to want to learn from that specific subject?

    I wanted to take thermodynamics in High School... was it available, No.

    I wanted to take a course on organic chemistry in High School... was it available, No.

    Not enough demand and no one to teach them.

    So people want to take a course on the History of the Bible... big deal? right. Nevermind the fact that our history curriculae is filled with many misrepresented facts (when regarding Christianity)... nevermind the historical omissions of how certain Christians have positively impacted our world... No, we musn't show that; it doesn't jive with everybody's beliefs. Well guess what? Nothing jives with everybody's beliefs anymore... America is comprised out of a myriad of beliefs. Yet somehow Christianity is always the target of systematic eradication policies...

    So what would happen if someone sparked a movement to eliminate the undue and unfair 'public school' tax that is levied on all property owners without regard for their beliefs? Why should I pay taxes to fund curriculae that I find incomplete and inaccurate? Would people like boutons_ accept that fight as a logical one? Probably not, his above inclinations have already proven his very one sided stance.


    A comparative course showing Christianity isn't the only game in town would be much more useful for schoolkids.
    I agree. Eitherway, study of the other world's religions is not on demand around here.

  3. #28
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    Well, if your argument is that without some form of moral philosophy society would collapse, then I agree with you. As I stated, I think morality is necessary to a society.
    I think we are in more of an agreement then we thought then. The only way that mine differs is that I think it was religions/philosophies that this morality was born from. Whether or not that is true is obviously damn near impossible to prove but if I could go back in time to college and research and write a thesis on it, I would........who am I kidding, I would still just drink a lot.

    Really, my point in the end is that I don't think there is anything wrong with religion and I don't understand why people without, ooh, here's a good one that covers all bases, "religious philosophies" think so negatively about it. I personally am not all that religious, I go to church on Sundays, believe what I choose to believe but I acknowledge that there are a whole lot of "flaws" in the system, but it doesn't make all those around me on Sundays bad people as Boutons would have one believe.

  4. #29
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    I agree. But I don't think that the faith needs to be in a deity. It could be that you have faith in your community and that's why you adhere to moral tenets.

    Anyway, I think we are arguing the same point from different angles. If I misunderstood your orginal argument and seemed hostile, I apologize.
    No, I think my original argument said some things I hadn't really intended. And I fully agree, "faith in your community" is something that is highly underrated.

  5. #30
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    So people want to take a course on the History of the Bible... big deal? right. Nevermind the fact that our history curriculae is filled with misrepresentation of the facts (when regarding Christianity)... nevermind the omissions of how certain Christians have positively impacted our world... No, we musn't show that; it doesn't jive with everybody's beliefs. Well guess what? Nothing jives with everybody's beliefs anymore... America is comprised out of a myriad of beliefs. Yet somehow Christianity is always the target of systematic eradication policies...
    I agree. I think a "History of the Bible" or "Bible as Literature" course would be beneficial to students. As another poster said, the Bible is one of the most influential literary works in the world, so why not teach it. However, when you have teachers that can't approach the subject from a purely "academic" mindset, and evidently, many of them cannot, then the courses become a sermon and we can't have that in public schools.
    Last edited by Mr. Peabody; 09-13-2006 at 08:38 AM.

  6. #31
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    Oh, and Boutons is a bag.
    That is the first subject I've ever thought of that I will absolutely never change my mind on, Boutons is definately a bag.

  7. #32
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    "It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. . . . Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" --James Madison

  8. #33
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    "It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. . . . Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" --James Madison
    Is that the full context of the quote ES?
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-13-2006 at 08:52 AM.

  9. #34
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Is that all the context of the quote ES?
    To the Honorable the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia

    Memorial and Remonstrance

    We the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, en led "A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,

    1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate.

    This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator.

    It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign.

    We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the ins ution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

    2. Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the cons uents.

    The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor b y an authority derived from them, and are slaves.

    3. Because it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of Citizens, and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entagled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it.

    Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?

    4. Because the Bill violates the equality which ought to be the basis of every law, and which is more indispensable, in proportion as the validity or expediency of any law is more liable to be impeached. If "all men are by nature equally free and independent," all men are to be considered as entering into Society on equal conditions; as relinquishing no more, and therefore retaining no less, one than another, of their natural rights.

    Above all are they to be considered as retaining an "equal le to the free exercise of Religion according to the dictates of Conscience." Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us.

    If this freedom be abused, it is an offence against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered. As the Bill violates equality by subjecting some to peculiar burdens, so it violates the same principle, by granting to others peculiar exemptions. Are the quakers and Menonists the only sects who think a compulsive support of their Religions unnecessary and unwarrantable? can their piety alone be entrusted with the care of public worship? Ought their Religions to be endowed above all others with extraordinary privileges by which proselytes may be enticed from all others?

    We think too favorably of the justice and good sense of these denominations to believe that they either covet pre-eminences over their fellow citizens or that they will be seduced by them from the common opposition to the measure.

    5. Because the Bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation.

    6. Because the establishment proposed by the Bill is not requisite for the support of the Christian Religion. To say that it is, is a contradiction to the Christian Religion itself, for every page of it disavows a dependence on the powers of this world: it is a contradiction to fact; for it is known that this Religion both existed and flourished, not only without the support of human laws , but in spite of every opposition from them, and not only during the period of miraculous aid, but long after it had been left to its own evidence and the ordinary care of Providence.

    Nay, it is a contradiction in terms; for a Religion not invented by human policy, must have pre-existed and been supported, before it was established by human policy. It is moreover to weaken in those who profess this Religion a pious confidence in its innate excellence and the patronage of its Author; and to foster in those who still reject it, a su ion that its friends are too conscious of its fallacies to trust it to its own merits.

    7. Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation.

    During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, supers ion, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest luster; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy.

    Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?

    8. Because the establishment in question is not necessary for the support of Civil Government. If it be urged as necessary for the support of Civil Government only as it is a means of supporting Religion, and it be not necessary for the latter purpose, it cannot be necessary for the former. If Religion be not within the cognizance of Civil Government how can its legal establishment be necessary to Civil Government? What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society?

    In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries.

    A just Government ins uted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not. Such a Government will be best supported by protecting every Citizen in the enjoyment of his Religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect, nor suffering any Sect to invade those of another.

    9. Because the proposed establishment is a departure from the generous policy, which, offering an Asylum to the persecuted and oppressed of every Nation and Religion, promised a luster to our country, and an accession to the number of its citizens. What a melancholy mark is the Bill of sudden degeneracy? Instead of holding forth an Asylum to the persecuted, it is itself a signal of persecution.

    It degrades from the equal rank of Citizens all those who see opinions in Religion do not bend to those of the Legislative authority. Distant as it may be in its present form from the Inquisition, it differs from it only in degree. The one is the first step, the other the last in the career of intolerance. The magnanimous sufferer under this cruel scourge in foreign Regions, must view the Bill as a Beacon on our Coast, warning him to seek some other haven, where liberty and philanthrophy in their due extent, may offer a more certain respose from his Troubles.

    10. Because it will have a like tendency to banish our Citizens. The allurements presented by other situations are every day thinning their number. To superadd a fresh motive to emigration by revoking the liberty which they now enjoy, would be the same species of folly which has dishonored and depopulated flourishing kingdoms.

    11. Because it will destroy that moderation and harmony which the forbearance of our laws to intermeddle with Religion has produced among its several sects. Torrents of blood have been split in the old world, by vain attempts of the secular arm, to extinguish Religious disscord, by proscribing all difference in Religious opinion. Time has at length revealed the true remedy. Every relaxation of narrow and rigorous policy, wherever it has been tried, has been found to assuage the disease.

    The American Theater has exhibited proofs that equal and complete liberty, if it does not wholly eradicate it, sufficiently destroys its malignant influence on the health and prosperity of the State. If with the salutary effects of this system under our own eyes, we begin to contract the bounds of Religious freedom, we know no name that will too severely reproach our folly. At least let warning be taken at the first fruits of the threatened innovation.

    The very appearance of the Bill has transformed "that Christian forbearance, love and charity," which of late mutually prevailed, into animosities and jealousies, which may not soon be appeased. What mischiefs may not be dreaded, should this enemy to the public quiet be armed with the force of a law?

    12. Because the policy of the Bill is adverse to the diffusion of the light of Christianity. The first wish of those who enjoy this precious gift ought to be that it may be imparted to the whole race of mankind. Compare the number of those who have as yet received it with the number still remaining under the dominion of false Religion s; and how small is the former! Does the policy of the Bill tend to lessen the disproportion?

    No; it at once discourages those who are strangers to the light of revelation from coming into the Region of it; and countenances by example the nations who continue in darkness, in shutting out those who might convey it to them. Instead of Leveling as far as possible, every obstacle to the victorious progress of Truth, the Bill with an ignoble and unchristian timidity would cir scribe it with a w all of defense against the encroachments of error.

    13. Because attempts to enforce by legal sanctions, acts obnoxious to go great a proportion of Citizens, tend to enervate the laws in general, and to slacken the bands of Society. I f it be difficult to execute any law which is not generally deemed necessary or salutary, what must be the case, where it is deemed invalid and dangerous? And what may be the effect of so striking an example of impotency in the Government, on its general authority?

    14. Because a measure of such singular magnitude and delicacy ought not to be imposed, without the clearest evidence that it is called for by a majority of citizens, and no satisfactory method is yet proposed by which the voice of the majority in this case may be determined, or its influence secured.

    The people of the respective counties are indeed requested to signify their opinion respecting the adoption of the Bill to the next Session of Assembly." But the representatives or of the Counties will be that of the people. Our hope is that neither of the former will, after due consideration, espouse the dangerous principle of the Bill. Should the event disappoint us, it will still leave us in full confidence, that a fair appeal to the latter will reverse the sentence against our liberties.

    15. Because finally, "the equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his Religion according to the dictates of conscience" is held by the same tenure with all our other rights.

    If we recur to its origin, it is equally the gift of nature; if we weigh its importance, it cannot be less dear to us; if we consult the "Declaration of those rights which pertain to the good people of Virginia, as the basis and foundation of Government," it is enumerated with equal solemnity, or rather studied emphasis.

    Either then, we must say, that the Will of the Legislature is the only measure of their authority; and that in the plenitude of this authority, they may sweep away all our fundamental rights; or, that they are bound to leave this particular right untouched and sacred:

    Either we must say, that they may control the freedom of the press, may abolish the Trial by Jury, may swallow up the Executive and Judiciary Powers of the State; nay that they may despoil us of our very right of suffrage, and erect themselves into an independent and hereditary Assembly or, we must say, that they have no authority to enact into the law the Bill under consideration.

    Conclusion:

    We the Subscribers say, that the General Assembly of this Commonwealth have no such authority: And that no effort may be omitted on our part against so dangerous an usurpation, we oppose to it, this remonstrance; earnestly praying, as we are in duty bound, that the Supreme Lawgiver of the Universe, by illuminating those to whom it is addressed, may on the one hand, turn their Councils from every act which would affront his holy prerogative, or violate the trust committed to them: and on the other, guide them into every measure which may be worthy of his [blessing, may re]bound to their own praise, and may establish more firmly the liberties, the prosperity and the happiness of the Commonweath.

  10. #35
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Thanks...

  11. #36
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Perhaps we should have a muslim teach the Bible studies course.

    Or better yet, offer a similar course tought by a muslim about the Q'uran.

    That would be cool.

  12. #37
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Or, we could let a scholar at the Vatican write the course on the bible. They are experts on the bible, so that would be a good way to get a good syllabus for our kids.

  13. #38
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Perhaps we should have a muslim teach the Bible studies course.

    Or better yet, offer a similar course tought by a muslim about the Q'uran.

    That would be cool.
    A literary/historical course about the Qu'ran and about Islam would be intensely helpful. In fact, I think it should be compulsory remedial material for President Bush.

  14. #39
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Or, we could let a scholar at the Vatican write the course on the bible. They are experts on the bible, so that would be a good way to get a good syllabus for our kids.
    No, my sectarian views should be the ones taught in school! I know, let's fight a war about it!

    Oh sorry, I was channeling European history from 1500-1750.

  15. #40
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    I'd be interested in learning more about the details of the study and how they measured their findings, but if the results are accurate then I do think it is a legitimate concern. The Bible, as with any religious do ent, should be taught from an academic perspective only. The history of Judeo-Christianity has plenty of material for a non-sectarian curriculum. Elective or not.

    When I was in school, my Bible elective was Bible School on Sundays.

  16. #41
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    Perhaps we should have a muslim teach the Bible studies course.

    Or better yet, offer a similar course tought by a muslim about the Q'uran.

    That would be cool.
    Took this class in college during the same semester in which 9/11 occurred, Very thankful for that one.

  17. #42
    Basketball Expertise spurster's Avatar
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    A class on the Bible is a good thing. Ideally, a class should have a mixed group of students who learn to understand and tolerate each other. I thought there were good texts that avoided the proselytizing. Teachers who bring in their own views are ok as long as all students are free to bring in their views and taught to question them.

  18. #43
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Could it be that maybe the students have chosen to want to learn from that specific subject?
    Could it be that the school board decided what to offer without really giving much of a about anything else?

  19. #44
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    Could it be that the school board decided what to offer without really giving much of a about anything else?

  20. #45
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    The Jews are best authority on the OT, probably the best ( since they actually wrote it for their own people, and haven't stopped analyzing it for 2000+ years). I find highly presumptious that Christian Bible-thumpers think they have any right to dispute OT with Jews.

  21. #46
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    No, my sectarian views should be the ones taught in school! I know, let's fight a war about it!

    Oh sorry, I was channeling European history from 1500-1750.
    My point exactly.

    Let's be honest about this.

    The people who want to teach about the Bible in public schools don't want it taught in an acedemic fashion.

    They want a doorway into the school system to preach their version of the bible.

    Common sense, backed by this study, tells us as much.

    I am all for learning about the contributions the Bible, Q'uran, what-have-you have contributed to history and literature. A good understanding of how the bible has shaped western culture and philosophy is, in my opinion, vital to cultural literacy.

    BUT

    In practice, it would seem, that classes that deal with the Bible become simply a way for zealots to use the power of the state to force their particular viewpoint onto students.

    I would say keep the classes, but a good audit sampling to make sure that the spirit and letter of the law is upheld is a must.

  22. #47
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    The report's executive summary had four findings:

    1) Most Bible courses taught in Texas public schools fail to meet even minimal standards for teacher qualifications and academic rigor.

    What this means is that the Biblical content of the classes often is mundane and non-stimulating, offering nothing but regurgitation of Bible passages and minor factual details, and some videos. This is criticizing the academic value of the curriculum, rather than the issues of religious freedom.

    2) Most Bible courses are taught as religious and devotional classes that promote one faith perspective over all others.

    While the Biblical content of the classes may be trivial, there is plenty being taught. Basically, most of the time the Bible class is simply an exercise in indoctrination towards fundamentalist evangelicalism, rife with teaching about creation science and about current events implying the imminent return of Jesus.

    That sort of thing makes me extremely angry. That is exactly the kind of thing the Founding Fathers argued against. There is no doubt this is prohibited in our form of government. I cannot view this as anything but hostility to even the narrowest notions of the Establishment Clause, and that proponents to this kind of sectarian instruction be seen as enemies to our American notions of freedom.

    3) Most Bible courses advocate an ideological agenda that is hostile to religious freedom, science and public education itself.

    The study points out materials from the Creation Science Museum and WallBuilders, among other ideological groups being presented in class. It also demonstrates instances where students were taught that the different races can be traced to Noah's sons (anybody know what that theory was used to justify about "Ham's descendants" in the 18th and 19th centuries???).

    4) A handful of Texas school districts show that it is possible to teach Bible courses in an objective and nonsectarian manner appropriate to public school classrooms.

    This details the three school districts whose curriculum was legally and academically sound.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It appears that a wide swath of posters agree that there is considerable academic value in teaching students about the Bible. It also appears that fundamentalists in the public schools are incapable of teaching the Bible in a way that is anywhere near being remotely consistent with our laws, or the basic tenets of religious freedom upon which our country was founded.

    So, we are left with either auditing these curricula to ensure compliance, or doing away with these electives altogether.

  23. #48
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Could it be that the school board decided what to offer without really giving much of a about anything else?
    Lately that has not been the case... you should know that.

  24. #49
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    The Jews are best authority on the OT, probably the best ( since they actually wrote it for their own people, and haven't stopped analyzing it for 2000+ years). I find highly presumptious that Christian Bible-thumpers think they have any right to dispute OT with Jews.
    Another drive-by...

  25. #50
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Lately that has not been the case... you should know that.
    It is still the case, even moreso now. You should know that. Trying to pretend school board members don't have agendas is completely disingenuous.

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