A Christian view of war

[101A]

I don't have a problem with torture. I have a problem empty words barren of credibility.

Interesting. I have a problem with torture.

[Extra Stout]

Interesting. I have a problem with torture.

What, then, do you think about the tactics the military already admits to having used, such as

--Open-handed blows to the abdomen, meant to inflict severe pain without significant damage.

--Leaving prisoners naked for several hours in rooms kept at 50 degrees F.

-- Using the "waterboard" technique to induce a constant gag reflex (KSM only held up for 2 1/2 minutes under this technique).

The Administration says that none of these qualify as torture because they don't cause lasting physical harm. What do you think?

[clambake]

Do you believe that name, rank, and serial number are sufficient?

What do you suggest that might be affective?

[101A]

What, then, do you think about the tactics the military already admits to having used, such as

--Open-handed blows to the abdomen, meant to inflict severe pain without significant damage.

--Leaving prisoners naked for several hours in rooms kept at 50 degrees F.

-- Using the "waterboard" technique to induce a constant gag reflex (KSM only held up for 2 1/2 minutes under this technique).

The Administration says that none of these qualify as torture because they don't cause lasting physical harm. What do you think?

Honestly, I have a problem with our government utilizing any of those techniques, whether they be "torture" under the letter of the law or not. It would be good if we were above board on all questions of human's rights.

[RandomGuy]

Yes, but it is the administrations position that no one has been tortured. SS Rice reiterated that this morning on NBC, several times.

I guess if you can define torture in such a way as to exclude what common sense would call torture, then she is right.

Then there is the small matter of our government handing people over to governments that we KNOW will torture them.

Those cases make us just as culpable.

[Extra Stout]

Honestly, I have a problem with our government utilizing any of those techniques, whether they be "torture" under the letter of the law or not. It would be good if we were above board on all questions of human's rights.

What is the determining factor of what is torture? Is it what U.S. law defines to be torture?

[RandomGuy]

Read my original response... I don't think anything justifies a war... at least not explicitly. We are, however, justified in our defense of the ideals of this country. Our right to exist without fear.

That 'big business' wants military contracts... that American companies want oil... that's a shame, and not justified interference. But that's not why America is at war.

As a people though, we have a right to keep these unreasonable, fanatical terrorists away from the U.S.; and if giving them a platform to do it halfway around the globe against our trained forces -- I'm for it.

I agree we have, as any nation does, a right to self-defense. I think that right to self defense does not extend to immoral behavior. As long as we agree on the torture bit, and that our administration is unethical in attempting to do so, or condoning it when others do it, we can let that bit alone.

That said, Iraq has/had nothing to do with fighting terror. We aren't "fighting terror" by being there, we are helping it.

I am not one of the "oil conspiracy" crowd. I am of the "Iraq was a mistake compounded by incompetence" crowd.

You say that Iraq is a good "platform" for fighting those who despise us. Here is a question: If we end up creating more people who despise us by using this platform, are we not harming our cause of self-defense?

[RandomGuy]

Do you believe that name, rank, and serial number are sufficient?

What do you suggest that might be affective?

Interrogation does not equal torture. From what I am given to understand, the most effective techniques have little to do with physical pain. I would welcome anybody to correct this understanding with hard data to the contrary. Even were it the case, I still would not want it done to protect me or my family.

[101A]

What is the determining factor of what is torture? Is it what U.S. law defines to be torture?

How is the saying? "I can't define torture (sic.), but I know it when I see it".

[Phenomanul]

I agree we have, as any nation does, a right to self-defense. I think that right to self defense does not extend to immoral behavior. As long as we agree on the torture bit, and that our administration is unethical in attempting to do so, or condoning it when others do it, we can let that bit alone.

That said, Iraq has/had nothing to do with fighting terror. We aren't "fighting terror" by being there, we are helping it.

I am not one of the "oil conspiracy" crowd. I am of the "Iraq was a mistake compounded by incompetence" crowd.

You say that Iraq is a good "platform" for fighting those who despise us. Here is a question: If we end up creating more people who despise us by using this platform, are we not harming our cause of self-defense?

The verdict is yet to be out on that one... but Muslims hardly needed any other reason to hate America... they have been hating western culture for centuries....

[Extra Stout]

You say that Iraq is a good "platform" for fighting those who despise us. Here is a question: If we end up creating more people who despise us by using this platform, are we not harming our cause of self-defense?

In a generally good post, I have to take issue with this.

By doing anything whatsoever, the U.S. is going to cause more people to hate us, because the people who are prone to hate us do not evaluate things rationally.

[101A]

... because the people who are prone to hate us do not evaluate things rationally.

You're talking about Boutons now, right?

[Crookshanks]

You're talking about Boutons now, right?

[Sec24Row7]

Christians stopped taking pacificm seriously as soon as Constantine Converted. They stopped getting their asses kicked all over the place, crawled out of their catacombs and caves and started doing the ass kicking.

[RandomGuy]

In a generally good post, I have to take issue with this.

By doing anything whatsoever, the U.S. is going to cause more people to hate us, because the people who are prone to hate us do not evaluate things rationally.

I disagree. Those who are prone to hate us will do so regardless. The people we need to reach are the ones sitting closer to the border.

If we were to start doing things like things like funding schools, building roads, improving water supplies, etc. Those things are the kinds of things that make it much harder to believe bad publicity.

Argh. Gotta go, more on this later.

[Extra Stout]

I disagree. Those who are prone to hate us will do so regardless. The people we need to reach are the ones sitting closer to the border.

If we were to start doing things like things like funding schools, building roads, improving water supplies, etc. Those things are the kinds of things that make it much harder to believe bad publicity.

Argh. Gotta go, more on this later.

You make it sound as if we would just send over some more foreign aid, there would be more schools, roads, and other infrastructure, rather than the corrupt governments just stealing it.

[RandomGuy]

The verdict is yet to be out on that one... but Muslims hardly needed any other reason to hate America... they have been hating western culture for centuries....

"Muslims"

You say that as if the whole billion of them are one monolithic collective brain with one unified opinion. Is that what you think?

I would be willing to guess that you have said the following at some point:

"Islam is a violent religion"

Have you ever really gotten to know any muslims personally? or is this something you have soaked up without doing any critical thinking about?

[Phenomanul]

"Muslims"

You say that as if the whole billion of them are one monolithic collective brain with one unified opinion. Is that what you think?

I would be willing to guess that you have said the following at some point:

"Islam is a violent religion"

Have you ever really gotten to know any muslims personally? or is this something you have soaked up without doing any critical thinking about?

Forgive me for forgetting the 'radical' adjective....

You are a quick pouncer....

Anyway, my 3 best friends from MIT were all muslim. So much in fact that people thought I was muslim.....

[RandomGuy]

Forgive me for forgetting the 'radical' adjective....

You are a quick pouncer....

Anyway, my 3 best friends from MIT were all muslim. So much in fact that people thought I was muslim.....

You have my unreserved apologies then. I am sorry for having jumped to the wrong conclusion.