Of course. I never said that's what the laws are based on. I certainly enjoy the by product of not smelling so horrible though.
well, I definetely can not be constrained within any political ideology. And while I would like to share my views with others in order to make them "see the light", my main reason is to hone my own arguments, see if I really believe what I do, and have a kickass time arguing.
How many people die from second-hand smoke per year, discounting people who live with smokers since we are talking about the practice of banning smoking in public.
Also, are there no other legal activities which result in the death of as many people? Should we ban boats on lakes because one persons pursuit of pleasure leads to the death of others?
Just as the people on the lake put themselves in the dangerous position of getting killed by boaters, you put yourself in bars, where people are constantly smoking. I fail to see the difference.
Instead of banning smoking, we should rather require a certain degree of ventilation from all places that allow smoking indoors.
Is this not more logical? Should we stop people from doing what they enjoy because other people put themselves in situations where their actions may endanger their health, and a handful end up dead? Most things that we do for pleasure can lead to the death of others...and if smoking kills more people it is because more people smoke. If half of the country went boating every day, imagine how many would die.
Should we ban automobiles and air conditioners because they will end up killing far more with than second hand smoke, in the long run?
As far as your friends go, stuff like the sexual issues are probably closing in on some of their core beliefs. Even if they are born out of ignorance or indoctrination, if they're really your friends you'll respect their views and just agree to disagree.
I never harrass them for these views. I put out my opposing views, but never in my lifetime have I yelled at, or had a serious argument with any of my friends regarding their views, and I never will.
I simply wish that one or two of them could think for themselves...
Your core beliefs are not important when it comes to making laws.
i have stupid friends... and i quite enjoy it.
smart friends tend to take themselves too seriously.
How many is enough for you?There are reasonable boat safety laws, why should there not be reasonable safety laws for enclosed public spaces?Also, are there no other legal activities which result in the death of as many people? Should we ban boats on lakes because one persons pursuit of pleasure leads to the death of others?I know you fail to see it.Just as the people on the lake put themselves in the dangerous position of getting killed by boaters, you put yourself in bars, where people are constantly smoking. I fail to see the difference.Why not just go outside?Instead of banning smoking, we should rather require a certain degree of ventilation from all places that allow smoking indoors.For most small places, absolutely not.Is this not more logical?They can smoke all they want -- outside.Should we stop people from doing what they enjoy because other people put themselves in situations where their actions may endanger their health, and a handful end up dead?Quite a few people go boating every day. Quite a few people walk across streets every day. There are laws to help preserve their health and safety. Why should breathing be excluded from that?Most things that we do for pleasure can lead to the death of others...and if smoking kills more people it is because more people smoke. If half of the country went boating every day, imagine how many would die.Nope. We should pass laws to make them safer, just like we should pass laws to make air safer to breathe.Should we ban automobiles and air conditioners because they will end up killing far more with than second hand smoke, in the long run?
You just call them stupid on the internets.i.e., agree with you more.I simply wish that one or two of them could think for themselves...You can't be serious.Your core beliefs are not important when it comes to making laws.
When making boating safety laws we are not talking about wholesale bans of the activity, only restrictions.
Thus, in the same light, why not just have the simple changes, not bans, to make things better?
Why is the ventilation idea bad? If they can't create the ventilation, then they can not allow smoking. If they cant allow smoking, their patrons go elsewhere.
This way noone is being prohibited, we are only making sure that when they do smoke indoors, it is safer for the rest of the bars patrons.
You can't drive a boat in a public swimming pool.When making boating safety laws we are not talking about wholesale bans of the activity, only restrictions.I've seen some places here where it kind of works. In others it's a joke.Why is the ventilation idea bad? If they can't create the ventilation, then they can not allow smoking. If they cant allow smoking, their patrons go elsewhere.
How difficult is it for you go outside for a smoke?
Chump, youre completely missing what I am saying.
I do not think them stupid for any view, simply for their reasons for these views. Any view that is out of hatred or discrimination is a stupid view, plain and simple. Now, if they truly professed logical reasons for these views i would not care.
This is evident in tha fact that they believe in the cig bans, believe Bush is the best president ever, and have numerous other views that are vastly different that mine, but I do not think them stupid for having these, merely different than I.
I do not want everybody to share my views, so do not judge me until you have known me. I get just as upset at people when they do not know why they think things that I agree with as I do when they dont know why they think things that I do not agree with....in fact, I have played the devils advocate to my fiancee until she wanted to hit me, simply because I wanted her to find out why she thought things.
And NO, ones personal morality should have ZERO basis on the laws they make. Only reason...slow, cautious reason should have any influence on their political views.
Well have you asked them upon what they base their views?Any view that is out of hatred or discrimination is a stupid view, plain and simple.You can't be serious.And NO, ones personal morality should have ZERO basis on the laws they make.
1. I dont smoke, and wouldnt touch the gross pieces of death.
2. It is very difficult. People who smoke regularly smoke often. Alot of people smoke more often at a bar because it is where they go to relax.
People who smoke, often do so to relax. If you are at a bar, you want to be smoking, but you are forced to leave the premises every time you want to light up. Then, you are required to pay, and lose your seat, every time you want to smoke.
To require that they go outside for every cig is just not reasonable. Just make ventilation laws. If the bar cannot comply, people cannot smoke there. End of story.
yes, I have argued these points many times. The only reason they think these things is because they believe it is Un-Christian.
And yes Chump, I am serious.
Tell me one instance in which we should make political decisions based on our PERSONAL MORALITY, rather than reason and logic, and I will concede the entire point and your absolute superiority over me.
Then how can you even answer #2?1. I dont smoke, and wouldnt touch the gross pieces of death.My girlfriend smokes, and she is disabled. She has no problem going outside on her canes to smoke, so why would you?2. It is very difficult. People who smoke regularly smoke often. Alot of people smoke more often at a bar because it is where they go to relax.What do you mean pay? A cover? Ever hear of an armband? A handstamp?If you are at a bar, you want to be smoking, but you are forced to leave the premises every time you want to light up. Then, you are required to pay, and lose your seat, every time you want to smoke.To require that they go outside for every cig is just not reasonable. Just make ventilation laws. If the bar cannot comply, people cannot smoke there. End of story.It's already happened. People still smoke their asses of in California and New York.
They just smoke outside.
End of story.
But, this must be a point in which Personal morality supercedes reason and logic. That you are making a better law by using your own personal moral views than you would be by looking at the situation through reason and logic.
I can answer number 2 better because I am not biased.
I hate the smell, the taste, and the affect of cigarettes, yet I am championing their cause.
You still fail to tell me how in the world it is a bad policy to simply require ventilation in order to have a cigarette license.
Are you kidding me? I think your definition of personal morality is too narrow.
Because I have been in places where it has been a miserable failure.
You still fail to tell me how going outside to smoke is a hardship if my mobility-impaired girlfriend has no problem with it an actually prefers to go to bars that prohibit smoking indoors.
My two cents on smoking in public places. Public buildings, I agree with the no
smoking ban. In most cases people must go there to transact business and have
no choice. Restaurants and Bars. It should be up to the owner if he wants to allow
smoking. Those that don't like smokers or whatever are not forced into going
into them. Same with owners that ban smoking. Smokers don't have to go there.
I am not going to really comment on the perils of second hand smoke. There are
arguments on both sides of the issue.
Gays - marriage and adoption. Dealers choice. I only see the marriage as part
of an age old tradition that some want to destroy and twist. But again that is
my opinion and I have expressed it to my political representatives. I am quite
sure when I become a minority I will lost the argument. Until then, I have won
the argument, legally.
No. Personal morality is something that you, based on your beliefs about life and religion, think is right.
Personal morality is something that is not necessarily shared by the rest of society because morality is not universal. Morality varies within all of society, so it can not be used to create laws which govern all of society.
And what you think is right has no place in the making of law?No. Personal morality is something that you, based on your beliefs about life and religion, think is right.
Why would it be a miserable failure, Chump? If the Government makes it a law that all businesses much reach a certain level of ventilation in order for indoor smoking to be legal, then there are no problems.
And it is better than a ban because in any situation where we can make things work for both parties, where neither is inconvenienced, it is the best possible method.
As said, some people go to bars to conduct business. So they should be forced to leave if they choose to smoke? Just because your girlfriend enjoys going in and out does not mean that others do. There are some people who spend hours upon hours at a bar, and having to leave would be a major pain in the ass.
Depends on your definition of right.
If you believe that right is what is in the true best interest of the individual people living in a society, then yes.
If you believe that right comes from God or religion, then your definition of right is wrong, at least for making laws.
That is what I mean by personal morality. I use it in the religious sense because all of my friends want to legislate their morality that comes from Christianity. This is the basis of their claim, this is the basis of their desired laws.
If they want a non-secular country, move to the middle east.
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